How Valuable is Bosh Anyway?

[Bendit]

The Cavs have gotten to the Finals with Lebron and have had the best record in the NBA over the last two seasons What have the Raptors done during Bosh's tenure? A "Max Contract" guy makes everyone else on their team better. How has Bosh done that?

Applying a monetary number to a player doesnt always make sense (visavis their statistical numbers). Is Zach Randolph worth his salary or Jermaine Oneal his? Most times the values get skewed because of the year, market/franchise, perceived value to the team, competition in the f/a class and possibily affection of the owner's daughter.

In my view the best application of value definition is "how does the player make the team around him better". If this question is answered honestly using pure bb insight then a valued descision can be made to retain or go in another direction. I attached a link in another thread about the Gasol trade and how the same player could not achieve his max. with the Grizzlies as he now does with the Lakers. It seems both teams have achieved much from that trade.

I feel the same about Bosh. I dont think his skill set allows the Raptors to become more than just a .500 or sligthly better (maybe 50 win team). Such a record barely makes it to the 2nd round with any degree of certainty as evidenced by the Mavs exit amongst others (I know the Raps play in the east but....). I am ambivalent about his retention with the Raps. Either way, much has to be added/tweaked.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

im starting to suspect that something maybe going on between Amir and Buddha....If buddha is a woman, then thats all good, but if buddha is a guy, then man, that's just wrong. hahaha just kidding!

i like Amir, dont get me wrong, but quoting Apollo's words, "comparing the two is just unfair" (or something to that extent). Amir is nowhere near what Bosh has accomplished. Eventhough people are saying he became the Raps franchise player by default, he still performed as a franchise player. Numbers-wise, id say he is a max contract player, but it takes more than that, you have to be an effective, vocal leader that is highly respected by his teammates, and Bosh aint any of that. For an NBA pro to be twitting, posting videos on youtube, it just goes to show that he is not ready to lead a team. I mean, do you see Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Carmelo, Wade doing these things? Being a franchise player comes with maturity and maturity is the result of responsibility. Bosh doesnt have (or probably doesnt want to acknowledge) the responsibility that these other players have, and thats why he doesnt deserve the max contract.

[diddy]

Rather than paying Bosh the "Max Contract" would the Raptors have a better product and be more profitable if they replaced Bosh's "Max Contract" with two or three other players who could contribute more to the Raptors winning than Bosh has done over the last seven years?

Man.. i guess. But I don't know where you think we are getting 2 or 3 decent players are coming from. And even then, you are using 2 or 3 guys to replace the production of 1. We got 2 or 3 guys for Vince and that didn't work out so hot. You've must've played one sport when your best guy left to go to some girlfriends house, and then all of a sudden you have a team of average dudes, and all of sudden, the game goes downhill.. just sayin'

I'd like to think if we lose Bosh we'll get a few solid players/picks back, but I think we are in hard shape for another couple of years.

[Buddahfan]

It seems to me that there is one argument that someone could legitimately make for Bosh being a a "Max Contract" guy.

That is based upon the incremental revenue, profit and value that he generates for the Raptors franchise.

However, this in and of itself begs the question.

Rather than paying Bosh the "Max Contract" would the Raptors have a better product and be more profitable if they replaced Bosh's "Max Contract" with two or three other players who could contribute more to the Raptors winning than Bosh has done over the last seven years?

Bosh will probably get a "Max Contract" and if MLSE does wind up being the organization paying it to him they had better be prepared to go well over the luxury tax threshold if they hope to put a winning, conference finals or better, team on the court.

[Buddahfan]

I'm with Tim. Bosh's market value is the same as James' or Wade's. It's because of the maximum contract cap and the fact that many teams will be willing to give Bosh the maximum contract amount.

If the market dictates $120M then that's his value. It doesn't matter if its the same as LeBron and Wade get. There is a cap and so you can't make comparisons like that. Teams would pay more than $120M for James if they could, I'm sure.

The Cavs have gotten to the Finals with Lebron and have had the best record in the NBA over the last two seasons What have the Raptors done during Bosh's tenure? A "Max Contract" guy makes everyone else on their team better. How has Bosh done that?

[Buddahfan]

Obviously Bosh is not a max player when compared to LeBron and Wade, but is he comparable to a player like Amare or Gasol, who will be paid approximately the same as Bosh? Instead of saying that Bosh is not worth the same as LeBron, you could say that, because of the contract limits, players like LeBron or Wade will never make what they normally would, so could be argued to be underpaid. In that case, Bosh would be worth the max, because he's not being compared to the 3 or 4 players who are a step above everyone else.

Besides, who are the Raptors saving the money for? Is Wade going to sign with the Raptors?

What evidence do you have to support that? There is a lot more to winning basketball than scoring and rebounding.

Bring me some evidence other than points and rebounds and a losing Raptors record over seven years to support your position. Thanks.

[Apollo]

I'm with Tim. Bosh's market value is the same as James' or Wade's. It's because of the maximum contract cap and the fact that many teams will be willing to give Bosh the maximum contract amount.

If the market dictates $120M then that's his value. It doesn't matter if its the same as LeBron and Wade get. There is a cap and so you can't make comparisons like that. Teams would pay more than $120M for James if they could, I'm sure.

[Tim W.]

Obviously Bosh is not a max player when compared to LeBron and Wade, but is he comparable to a player like Amare or Gasol, who will be paid approximately the same as Bosh? Instead of saying that Bosh is not worth the same as LeBron, you could say that, because of the contract limits, players like LeBron or Wade will never make what they normally would, so could be argued to be underpaid. In that case, Bosh would be worth the max, because he's not being compared to the 3 or 4 players who are a step above everyone else.

Besides, who are the Raptors saving the money for? Is Wade going to sign with the Raptors?

[Buddahfan]

Lets look at the Raptors record during the seven years that Bosh has been with them.

Wins = 254
Losses = 320
Win % = .443%

Plus .500 season = One

The argument one can make for Bosh being a "Max Contract" player is that the Raptors haven't won during the during the seven years that he has been in Toronto because of bad coaching and lack of supporting talent. There certainly appears to be some validity to that argument.

However, it seems to me that especially in light of the first post on this thread that to say that Bosh is a "Max Contract" player might be stretching it more than a bit.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/

[Buddahfan]

To begin with Bosh puts up some very good scoring and rebounding numbers, however let us look a little deeper into those numbers

In the games that Bosh played the Raptors were 35 - 35. Over the course of the season when Bosh was on the court the Raptors did no better than break even points wise with their opponents. See "One Year Unadjusted Ratings" on link below.

Okay so one would say that the rest of the team stunk and without Bosh the Raptors would have been lucky to win 20 games. That seems like a reasonable argument. But does that make Bosh a "Max Contract" player.

Lets try a comparison, I am sure Apollo will have plenty to say about this.

Most Raptors fans agree that Johnson is probably worth about $4 - $5 million a year. Some say less but I don't know of any that say more. So let us go with $4.5 million a year in the first year of his contract. That seems reasonable. Now lets look at how the Raptors did when Johnson was on the court.

Johnson played in all 82 games about 18 minutes a game. Most of those minutes were as a key rotation player and usually the first big off of the bench. So certainly most of minutes weren't garbage minutes.

For the year per 100 possessions when Johnson was on the court the Raptors actually outscored their opponents by 2 points per 100 possessions, the most by any Raptors player. Well one could argue that most of those minutes were bench minutes and they would not translate if he started. Given his high foul rate I think that that argument seems reasonable.

However, lets see what Johnson actually did when he was given a chance to start. To begin with the Raptors were 3 - 2 in the games that he started. Yes the three wins were against the Knicks and Pistons but they were still wins. In those 5 games Johnson averaged 33 mpg which are acceptable starters minutes. He also averaged 18 ppg and 6 rpg while shooting 70% from the field. In addition while he was on the court during those five games that he started the Raptors outscored their opponents by 8.2 ppg. Now this is a small sample but there is no evidence to suggest that this would not extrapolate if he started more games given that he averaged 33 mpg as a starter.

In any case this is not about Johnson but about Bosh. If we all agree that Johnson is worth $4.5 million next season or maybe even a little less, yet the Raptors performed better as a team when he was on the court than when Bosh was on the court and even better when Johnson started, is Bosh really worth a "Max Contract"

After all as some Raptors fans have pointed out Johnson was only a 18 mpg "scrub" last season.


http://basketballvalue.com/teamplaye...=DESC&team=TOR

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...h49f4DPOg9PaB4