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Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

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  • #31
    Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    if davis grows an inch or 2 and puts on some mass he could play center easy. look at players like okafor, he's not tall as most centers but he has the strength and skills to handle them. Davis and amir is a dynamic duo in the post. Then outside you got demar + irving(hopefully) and then u got JJ and Kleiza off the bench.
    At least for the time being, Davis is way less of a legit C than Bargnani is. He had trouble handling the bigger PF such as Boozer, there's no way he can be asked to guard guys like Howard & Bogut. He may bulk up enough in the future, but I expect he'll only ever have a Bosh-like body - fine for PF, but not for C.

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    • #32
      tbihis wrote: View Post
      I agree, and i think i shouldve been clearer. I shoulve said that if we trade Amir, we're essentially trading for a bit of upside but more on potential. Like i said, we've seen what Amir can do and IMO, he's reached his ceiling. I could be wrong, but that would be my opinion. What we can get for Amir is a type of player that is showing flashes of what he can eventually become, but on a team which really he isnt a fit with. An example i can think of is Jeff Green. We saw how good he was in OKC and from that we can probably gauge how good he'll eventually become. And IMO, with the Raps, he can be a starter and a part of the core for years to come. Now that he's with the Celtics, his value from a 16/6 guy, dwindled down to 9/3. Has he regressed? definitely not, but with a stacked team like Boston, i dont think theyre playing him to his potential. They might be keeping him as a core for the future, or maybe not. I think Boston would love to have Amir as a player. He embodies what the Celtics preach and is very young as well. In this case, it will work for both teams.

      With the Bonner comparison, im just stating that Bonner was so-so with the Raps and he was able to find a spot in the rotation with the team like the Spurs, so what more Amir who is already solid with the Raps. If you sell Amir to one of the elite teams, im sure they wouldnt hesitate taking a look at him and possibly give up a young and up and coming asset.
      First of all, Jeff Green is a free agent this summer and will end up getting $10-12 million dollars in his new contract, which makes trading for him much more difficult from a logistics standpoint, on top of the fact that I don't think Boston would consider this in a million years.

      Danny Ainge just gave up a HUGE part of his team to acquire Green, and got roasted by his fans and the media in the process. You really think he'd flip Green this summer for Amir Johnson to play 10-15 minutes a night behind Garnett? They'd be rioting in the streets in Beantown.

      Obviously the Raptors should jump at this deal if it was offered but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's not going to happen. We're much more likely to get a stop gap player or somebody who will never pan out then we are to get a starter who we can build around for the next decade.
      Last edited by Fully; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 01:30 PM.

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      • #33
        It's impossible to say with certainty that Amir has reached his ceiling. Amir has shown that he's capable of recognizing what parts of his game need to be improved and then he has actually worked at and strengthened his game. Wouldn't it be nice if all the young guys could show the same level of improvement next year as Amir did last year. This year I'm sure he'll be working at stretching his game out and I wouldn't be surprised to see more improvement. I definitely wouldn't count him out from being their best player at the four.

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        • #34
          tbihis wrote: View Post
          oh yeah, i think that is right. well hopefully no tension arises between Amir and Ed, but i dont think it would take tension for him to demand a starting job. it can only take one person in his camp to whisper in his ear and tell him this is what you deserve and therefore should demand.
          I would hope that none of the guys on the team are that easily manipulated by those around them. That's the sort of stuff that leads to those sad stories of guys like Latrell Sprewell and Antoine Walker going bankrupt.

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          • #35
            It is simple. It is about having limited resources in terms of Money to Spend and Players to use as trade assets WHILE Having dire needs in your PG position, SF position and Center Position. You can not address all three from the Draft either because you can not allocate enough resources to develop 5-6 rookies at the same time. So let me Break it down :

            1) Huge need to Upgrade and bring talent in PG,SF and Center.
            2) Limited resources and bargaining chips.
            3) Having two players in the same position who have similar games ( not identical But similar), have the same body type and ... and you can not play them as your starting PF and Center and both supposedly are talented and can gain some interest in the trade market.

            If you have taken Econ 101 classes, then you know your only choise here is to move one of these guys and address your other needs. Lets face it, Amir is talking about becoming a leader of this team. Do you think he will be happy coming off the bench playing 15 minutes a game

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            • #36
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              At least for the time being, Davis is way less of a legit C than Bargnani is. He had trouble handling the bigger PF such as Boozer, there's no way he can be asked to guard guys like Howard & Bogut. He may bulk up enough in the future, but I expect he'll only ever have a Bosh-like body - fine for PF, but not for C.
              No one is asking him to be a full time center. Just 10-15 minutes a game.
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              • #37
                Since I started this thing, I thought I would chime in here with a few thoughts. The way I see it is that building a team requires the acquisition of assets. You want to buy low and sell high. And Colangelo has done a pretty decent job of that, in some respects, especially when it comes to Amir. The problem I see with that is that you should not only be acquiring assets, but looking out for players that you feel should be "keepers". These are guys whose trade value is virtually irrelevant because their value to the team is probably worth more than they would fetch in a trade. Considering how few of the current roster I would consider "keepers" I would be extremely reticent to trading one of them.

                Since everyone loves lists, I thought I'd make a list of the current Raptors in order of value to the team vs trade value. Keep in mind I've only included the players who will still be under contract beyond the end of this season, so no Reggie, Sonny, Joey or any free agent.

                CORE- These are guys I would rather not trade and see them as guys I want to build with.
                Ed Davis- A rookie with an extremely high basketball IQ and a lot of potential? You'd have to get a young, perennial All-Star back in return for him.
                Amir Johnson- A hard working glue guy who defends, rebounds and scores efficiently is a lot rarer than most people think. Especially one that is 23 and learned his trade on a contender like the Pistons. Only way I'd trade him is if it makes the team better long term.
                DeMar DeRozan- If he played above average defense he'd be virtually untouchable, and if he doesn't continue his improvement on that end, he'll drop like a stone. But DeRozan is the most expendable of the three "core" guys the Raptors have right now. It would still take a hell of a lot of pry him away, though.

                POSSIBLE PIECES- I'd have no problem including these guys in a trade, but it I think they are probably more valuable to the team than anything you could get for them on the open market.
                James Johnson- It's not that he's an especially good player, but his potential is of greater value to the team than anything you'd get for him. Considering he's only really played half a season in the NBA, he's still mostly an unknown quantity, but one he's shown enough in that time that he's worth holding onto.
                Jose Calderon- Jose's trade value is probably less than what he brings to the team, so I'd rather keep him than take on someone else that wouldn't help the team as much. He's a better PG than many give him credit for and is a good teammate. I don't see him as the long term solution to the PG situation, but he's easily good enough to fill in until that solution comes along.
                Jerryd Bayless- I'm not as high on him as some, but he's certainly got potential. I remember Bob Cousy once saying that you can tell if a player is a true PG if he ends up passing the ball on a fast break. Count how many times Bayless takes it in himself. Still, he's got heart and talent. You could do far worse than him as your backup PG.

                TRADE BAIT- These are guys who would fetch more in a trade than what they'd bring to the team long term.
                Leandro Barbosa- He's a 28 year old instant offense bench player with a history of injuries. By the time this team really needs a player like that, he'll probably be on the downside of his career. If he doesn't opt out, the Raptors should get what they can for him. He'd help a contender far more than he would the Raptors.
                Andrea Bargnani- If you can get a good deal for a player who actually has a negative impact overall on the team, you do it and don't look back. Yes, Bargnani is talented offensively, but he's way more trouble than he's worth.

                WORTHLESS
                Solomon Alibi- Does the league even remember this guy exists? He might end up being a player, but if this year is any indication, that time is not next season, that's for sure.

                NEGATIVE TRADE VALUE
                Linus Kleiza- Getting paid what he is with a possibly career threatening knee injury? The Raptors would have to give up something good in order for a team to take them off their hands. I hope he regains his form because he would be a nice bench player if he does.
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                • #38
                  Fully wrote: View Post
                  First of all, Jeff Green is a free agent this summer and will end up getting $10-12 million dollars in his new contract, which makes trading for him much more difficult from a logistics standpoint, on top of the fact that I don't think Boston would consider this in a million years.

                  Danny Ainge just gave up a HUGE part of his team to acquire Green, and got roasted by his fans and the media in the process. You really think he'd flip Green this summer for Amir Johnson to play 10-15 minutes a night behind Garnett? They'd be rioting in the streets in Beantown.

                  Obviously the Raptors should jump at this deal if it was offered but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's not going to happen. We're much more likely to get a stop gap player or somebody who will never pan out then we are to get a starter who we can build around for the next decade.
                  Good points. I was merely using Green as an example and wasnt married to the idea of targeting Green but for the sake of argument then we can go with Green.

                  Green actually is still on a qualifying offer, now im not exactly sure what that means but if that means he cant opt out then he's still with the Celtics for $5mil and can still be traded by the Celtics. If he can opt out, and like you said will be garnering 10-12mil, then the Celtics wont be able to afford him anyways. The Celtics has a $72 mil payroll next year, $67 without Green's contract. They could well take Amir, and let Big baby walk coz IMO, Amir is a much more skilled and versatile player than Glen Davis. Amir can play the 4 and 5, and can play effectively with KG. So with that said, they can let go of Green, i dont think they see him as a part of the future core, specially with Pierce and Garnett both on contract for big money and Green will primarily play backup for these two for 10-12mil. IMO, they took green coz that was the best possible deal at that time that they could take for Perkin, doesnt translate to keeping green for the future.

                  I dont think Ainge gave up a lot for Green. Perkins declined an extension and as history goes, when a player declines an extension, the only way you can re-sign him is if you overpay. I guess Ainge didnt see the value in paying a 27yrold 6-10 center who just played 12 games due to a leg injury 8-10million. He knows Garnett aint going anywhere, for sure he'll re-sign with the celtics and he's got Jermaine at 6mil and shaq at 1mil. He's probably thinking if we dont win now or next year, we're probably going on semi-rebuild mode anyways (allen, garnett expiring contracts) so why put so much money on a semi-aging undersized center. Perkins is a beast on defense dont get me wrong, but ainge may have been thinking he can go with what o'neal and garnett can offer.

                  IMO, the Celtics can definitely consider Amir. Maybe the Spurs would too. With Duncan and McDyess getting close to retirement Amir would be good for them at the 4-5 spot. Pop will definitely like his hardwork/hustle mentality and can be a good combination with Blair. Maybe theyd let go of Hill since Parker signed a 4 year extension. I think Hill can be a very good addition to the raptors core.
                  Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 03:17 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    No one is asking him to be a full time center. Just 10-15 minutes a game.
                    Davis play as center for 10-15 minutes !! Here we go again with the nonsense of pushing players into positions that they are build for, they do not have experience and are not suited for !!!!

                    We did with AB, moving him between 3, 4 and 5. We tend to do this with our rookies. Why is that ?
                    Why not just give them a role and ask them to excel in it ?

                    Why do we want to play a 220 lb kid as a center and let him get beaten up just because we want Amir to be on the court ?

                    This is pure non-sense. Get a REAL Center. Build the team the right way. Get a REAL PG and not a shooting guard that is undersized and hence moved to PG position.

                    I know Tim knows better than this but his hate for Bargnani and his personal agenda against AB is forcing him to make this faulty argument on HOW to Play Davis and Johnson on the floor together.

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                    • #40
                      j bean wrote: View Post
                      It's impossible to say with certainty that Amir has reached his ceiling. Amir has shown that he's capable of recognizing what parts of his game need to be improved and then he has actually worked at and strengthened his game. Wouldn't it be nice if all the young guys could show the same level of improvement next year as Amir did last year. This year I'm sure he'll be working at stretching his game out and I wouldn't be surprised to see more improvement. I definitely wouldn't count him out from being their best player at the four.
                      I guess im just going with what everybody is saying about Bargnani, that he's already been in the NBA for 5 years and still hasnt improved on defense, so with Amir, since he's been in the league for 6 years, im just guessing this maybe as far as he goes. But you are right in pointing out Amir's determination to improve, which Bargnani sorely lacks. Everybody still has room to improve if they put their minds to it, i guess. But i really cant see Amir being more than a 10-8 guy. I maybe wrong, but thats my opinion. He had a career year on a team that won 22 games while sharing minutes with a rookie. Like i said, he came into the league, in the same team as Jason Maxiel and Maxiel played, while he did not. Who knows, maybe its the youth factor or the coach, but if he really was a special talent, he wouldve at least cracked the Detroit rotation during his early years.

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                      • #41
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        Since I started this thing, I thought I would chime in here with a few thoughts. The way I see it is that building a team requires the acquisition of assets. You want to buy low and sell high. And Colangelo has done a pretty decent job of that, in some respects, especially when it comes to Amir. The problem I see with that is that you should not only be acquiring assets, but looking out for players that you feel should be "keepers". These are guys whose trade value is virtually irrelevant because their value to the team is probably worth more than they would fetch in a trade. Considering how few of the current roster I would consider "keepers" I would be extremely reticent to trading one of them.

                        Since everyone loves lists, I thought I'd make a list of the current Raptors in order of value to the team vs trade value. Keep in mind I've only included the players who will still be under contract beyond the end of this season, so no Reggie, Sonny, Joey or any free agent.

                        It would be interesting to do some poll, either one player at a time or all together if possible, so RR readers could pick the category they think each of the 10 Raptors under contract fall into (assume Barbosa uses his player option).

                        It is easy to see why such differing opinions among RR posters, when you see what value each person puts on each player. For instance, here is how I would break down the categories and which players I would personally put in each. It's no wonder we don't see eye-to-eye on some topics!

                        A) KEEPERS
                        - good young players with high potential that should be part of the team's core for years to come; virtually untradeable
                        - Davis
                        - DeRozan

                        B) CORE POTENTIAL
                        - good players, young, manageable salary; could be part of the secondary core for years to come with further development/improvement or could be used as trade bait if the right deal comes along
                        - Bargnani
                        - A. Johnson
                        - J. Johnson
                        - Bayless*

                        C) SHORT TERM
                        - decent players that you'd be happy to have on the team, but aren't likely to be part of the long-term future of this team; play them or trade them, but they're likely undervalued on the trade market due to skill/age/salary/injuries
                        - Calderon
                        - Kleiza

                        D) TRADE BAIT
                        - their best value to this team is in a trade to bring in draft picks and/or more A/B type players
                        - Barbosa
                        - Alabi

                        * Bayless moves to "D" if Irving is drafted
                        Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 04:47 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Tim, the only possible issue I could ever see arising is that neither Ed nor Amir give you that stretch 4 guy to extend the defense and spread the floor. Amir's shot is much better and Ed should be able to develop a solid 15 footer but neither guy is going to have Garnett, Stoudemire, Bosh et al. type range. Now, as long as the Raps have enough shooting on the perimeter this isn't an issue but it does give you less flexibility up front. You could remedy this by having a 4th big to play spot minutes here and there to mix things up, which is likely a good idea.

                          Defensively, I don't see any issue. Davis and Amir can both defend the pick and roll and bang down low.

                          I am just fine with both guys coming back.

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                          • #43
                            tbihis wrote: View Post
                            I guess im just going with what everybody is saying about Bargnani, that he's already been in the NBA for 5 years and still hasnt improved on defense, so with Amir, since he's been in the league for 6 years, im just guessing this maybe as far as he goes. But you are right in pointing out Amir's determination to improve, which Bargnani sorely lacks. Everybody still has room to improve if they put their minds to it, i guess. But i really cant see Amir being more than a 10-8 guy. I maybe wrong, but thats my opinion. He had a career year on a team that won 22 games while sharing minutes with a rookie. Like i said, he came into the league, in the same team as Jason Maxiel and Maxiel played, while he did not. Who knows, maybe its the youth factor or the coach, but if he really was a special talent, he wouldve at least cracked the Detroit rotation during his early years.
                            You have a number of opinions that I have to disagree with comparing Bargs and Amir.
                            With the same amount of shots taken, Amir outscores Bargs. If given the same playing time, Amir almost doubles Bargs in rebounds. On defense who are you going to get the most stops with? Amir can switch and cover a three which is something Bargs isn't able to do [he has a hard time covering anyone with the exception of a center that doesn't finish well ].
                            As far as what happened with Amir in Detroit it has no bearing on his true potential. They never saw him as a part of the rotation but he has proven them wrong. Maybe you would prefer Charlie V?
                            When comparing their playing time in the league look at the minutes played. Bargs has always been given 30 plus minutes regardless of his play.

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                            • #44
                              Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
                              Davis play as center for 10-15 minutes !! Here we go again with the nonsense of pushing players into positions that they are build for, they do not have experience and are not suited for !!!!
                              Sometimes the matchups favour guys like Davis, Johnson and Bargnani at Centre. Bargnani for example has done quite well against Shaq and various other large immobile power based bigs, but he'll get his ass handed to him by Perkins or Garnett once Boston makes the adjustment and he's faced with that matchup.

                              Similarly, Amir and Ed possess the quickness and bounce to catch certain centres off guard, even when they're at a strength disadvantage (which will become less of a problem as they get older). It's nice to have this kind of versatility to recognize and exploit different matchups, even if only for 10 minutes per game.
                              Last edited by Brasky; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 05:42 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Davis' old man says that Ed plans to put on like 20lbs of muscle this summer. Davis plays like a typical center, he just lacks mass.

                                What are the guidelines for determining if a guy is a center anyway? Just wondering because people seem to love to argue the point of if a guy is/isn't a center.

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