If we don't draft KI, JB has be are starting PG next season!

[Maleko]

Another lackey who gathered some data, Medic at RealGM. (Feeling lazy today):

Bayless as a starter:

14 games (4-10)
35 min
86/179 (.480) shooting
17/ 51 (.333) 3pt shooting
64/ 79 (.800) FT%
5.64 FTAPG
18.1 PPG
6.7 APG
3.6 RPG
1.0 SPG
2.9 TOV PG
2.29 ASST/ TO ratio (37th amongst NBA guards, just behind JJ Barea)
0.59 TS% (3rd in the league out of all PG's behind Billups & Nash. 29th overall in the league)

I gotta say, 18.1 and 6.7 is nice out of the PG as a starter. His assist to turnover ratio is still poor, and he needs to be better there, but simply his ability to get to the line and put the other team into foul trouble (getting us shooting into penalty earlier as well) is undervalued since he gets to the line almost 3x the rate that Jose does (5.7 FTA to 2.2 per 36mins).

EDIT: sorry adding the discussion link: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...9c16be9f6266b8

[Chr1s1anL]

My 1st Choice: draft Irving --> trade Bayless

My 2nd Choice: unable to draft Irving (I would take him 1st overall) --> start Bayless, Calderon backup


I do NOT believe Bayless is the PG of the Raps future. However, if the Raps are unable to draft Irving, I would give the starting job to Bayless and give him the chance to prove me and his other critics wrong. Giving him the legit ongoing opportunity to start and play with the core nucleous (Davis, DeRozan and draft pick) will determine once and for all whether or not Bayless can become the PG of the future. If not, then starting him showcases him to improve his trade value, at the very least.

As much as I like Calderon, he is absolutely not part of the long-term plans for the Raps franchise and needs to relinquish the starting role. Plus, I really like a 2nd unit that is anchored by Calderon, Amir (Davis better be starting PF) and Barbosa (if he's still here). Calderon and Amir have good chemistry already and Calderon's calm pass-first approach would mesh well with Barbosa's driving/shooting mentality in the backcourt. And, if the Raps do find a defensive C and also keep Bargnani, then a Bargnani/Amir/Barbosa/Calderon unit, along with J.Jonson/Kleiza, would be a pretty good veteran backup unit.

If the Raps keep their top-6 (worst case) draft pick and are unable to draft Irving, I wouldn't pick another PG. I think Irving will become significantly better in the long-term than Bayless, but I don't feel the same way about the other top PG (ie: Walker/Knight). If the Raps can't get Irving, I feel they are better off strengthening another position (ie: Williams/Kanter) and giving Bayless the opportunity to prove his long-term worth to the franchise.

I couldn't agree more. Need to give the guy a shot to prove himself.

[Maleko]

Interesting stats gathered by BorisD at the Raptors space community page:

Okay, so side-by-side - Jerryd vs. Hose B as starters - all stats, here we go:

Points Produced / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless 20.6, Calderon 14.8 (Bayless, + 5.8)
% of Team's Possessions Borne Individually while on the floor: Bayless 24.5%, Calderon 19.1% (Bayless, + 5.4%)
ORat: Bayless 121.9, Calderon 112.5 (Bayless, + 9.4)
effective FG%: Bayless 53.7%, Calderon 50.5% (Bayless, 3.2%)
True Shooting %: Bayless 59.1%, Calderon 53.4% (Bayless, 5.7%)
Free throws / 100 Field Goal Attempts: Bayless 31.5, Calderon 13.1 (Bayless, + 18.4)
Percentage of teammates' field goals assisted: Bayless 36.0%, Calderon 42.8% (Calderon, + 6.8%)
Turnovers as percentage of Individual Possessions: Bayless 15.2%, Calderon 19.0% (Bayless, + 3.8%)
Percentage of Total Available Rebounds Grabbed: Bayless 7.0%, Calderon, 5.9% (Bayless, + 1.1%)
Stop%: Bayless 47.1%, Calderon 40.3% (Bayless, + 6.8%)
Points allowed per 100 possessions faced: Bayless 114.8, Calderon 116.1 (Bayless, + 1.3)
Net Points / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless +3.8, Calderon -1.8 (Bayless, + 5.6)

In other words, as a starter Jerryd Bayless has done absolutely everything better than Calderon and in some cases hugely better. The only thing Jose has done better is he assists on more of his teammates' field goals than Jerryd does (but surprisingly turns it over more than Jerryd). That has not translated into team success, as our offensive rating is 105.6 in the games in which Jose starts and 110.2 when Jerryd starts.

This is hardly scratching the surface of statistical analysis, and probably a little cherry picked to favour Bayless, but a few important notes I see here are that Jose's turnover % is actually higher, just that he assists more so his assist/turnover ratio is better, but of note is the higher offensive rating with Bayless starting. I was a little surprised at that.

Link to page 3 of the discussion: http://community.raptorspace.com/top...er.html?page=3

[CalgaryRapsFan]

My 1st Choice: draft Irving --> trade Bayless

My 2nd Choice: unable to draft Irving (I would take him 1st overall) --> start Bayless, Calderon backup


I do NOT believe Bayless is the PG of the Raps future. However, if the Raps are unable to draft Irving, I would give the starting job to Bayless and give him the chance to prove me and his other critics wrong. Giving him the legit ongoing opportunity to start and play with the core nucleous (Davis, DeRozan and draft pick) will determine once and for all whether or not Bayless can become the PG of the future. If not, then starting him showcases him to improve his trade value, at the very least.

As much as I like Calderon, he is absolutely not part of the long-term plans for the Raps franchise and needs to relinquish the starting role. Plus, I really like a 2nd unit that is anchored by Calderon, Amir (Davis better be starting PF) and Barbosa (if he's still here). Calderon and Amir have good chemistry already and Calderon's calm pass-first approach would mesh well with Barbosa's driving/shooting mentality in the backcourt. And, if the Raps do find a defensive C and also keep Bargnani, then a Bargnani/Amir/Barbosa/Calderon unit, along with J.Jonson/Kleiza, would be a pretty good veteran backup unit.

If the Raps keep their top-6 (worst case) draft pick and are unable to draft Irving, I wouldn't pick another PG. I think Irving will become significantly better in the long-term than Bayless, but I don't feel the same way about the other top PG (ie: Walker/Knight). If the Raps can't get Irving, I feel they are better off strengthening another position (ie: Williams/Kanter) and giving Bayless the opportunity to prove his long-term worth to the franchise.

[Chr1s1anL]

Jose was good for less than 10 points a game last year while playing over 30 min. When he turns down open looks and passes because he's unsure of his shot that isn't being a true floor general. When you combine that with his defensive challenges I think he's contributing more of a losing influence than a calming influence. Another point to consider is why is there always a controversy with Jose on whether he should start or come off the bench no matter who the other PG is?

That's true his never been able to separate him self from the back up. I think that all you raptor fans like him cause his safe

[malefax]

There is no evidence that Bayless plays better D than Calderon. The Raptors defence was better (by the numbers) with Calderon on the floor than Bayless. Calderon also got more steals, bth per game and per 36 minutes. Hey also played against tougher lineups. Bayless's defense is a myth.

[Mediumcore]

Bayless put up a lot of points towards the end of the season and shot a good percentage, but his scoring was never in question. The kid can get his. Can he lead a team? What was their record in the games he started and what were his assist totals for that period?

When his shot his falling it's like having Jamal Crawford on the floor, but when it's not he really doesn't bring anything else to the game.

[Employee]

I kind of like the idea of starting Bayless. He just seemed to suck so much more when he had a really short leash.

But then again But then again you could argue that Bayless played better when Jose was injured, NOT when he was starting.

[Apollo]

Bayless was not consistent enough last season to enter this season as the primary player at PG. It's fine for him to learn and grow off the bench. Hundreds of players have been successful by doing this.

[j bean]

How is Calderon washed up? If Calderon's around at the start of next season, he should start. He's a true floor general, gets everyone involved and is a calming influence on the floor, which is important, especially with a young team.

Jose was good for less than 10 points a game last year while playing over 30 min. When he turns down open looks and passes because he's unsure of his shot that isn't being a true floor general. When you combine that with his defensive challenges I think he's contributing more of a losing influence than a calming influence. Another point to consider is why is there always a controversy with Jose on whether he should start or come off the bench no matter who the other PG is?

[WJF]

The LAST time!

I never said Bayless was a scrub, I was just saying even scrubs can put up numbers when playing 30 minutes.

Why does Bayless have to start to develop? Can he not develop with 20 plus minutes off the bench each and every game?

[Chr1s1anL]

How is Calderon washed up? If Calderon's around at the start of next season, he should start. He's a true floor general, gets everyone involved and is a calming influence on the floor, which is important, especially with a young team.

You know what's more important on a young team? Development! What's the point of getting all theses young player if we don't play them. I would understand if was Steve Nash but, Jose Calderon. I'm not saying he should get traded just that he shouldn't start.

[MangoKid]

if bayless is a scrub what does that make jose? jose is a washed up PG who plays terrible defence and is having problems getting off a shot in offense. Bayless is an explosive scorer who can also distribute the ball quite well, he is also clutch in late game situations. And he almost single handedly bought us back from a 25 point deficit in detroit. This guy should start no matter what you say.

How is Calderon washed up? If Calderon's around at the start of next season, he should start. He's a true floor general, gets everyone involved and is a calming influence on the floor, which is important, especially with a young team.

[Raptors_]

Why does a player have to start to develop for the (near) future? Any scrub can put up number playing 35 minutes a night, but what are they doing to help the team be better. I am not getting into a Jose vs. Bayless debate, I am wanting to know why a guy who has washed out with two teams is all of a sudden the guy that should be our starter. How is he any different than Weems last year and James Johnson this year? Grow as a player with the opportunities you earn, not by being given a job you have not earned.

This is my last post in this thread because it seems that people are not getting what I am saying, I don't want to change anyones mind, but I would surely like to hear better arguments that its a rebuild.

if bayless is a scrub what does that make jose? jose is a washed up PG who plays terrible defence and is having problems getting off a shot in offense. Bayless is an explosive scorer who can also distribute the ball quite well, he is also clutch in late game situations. And he almost single handedly bought us back from a 25 point deficit in detroit. This guy should start no matter what you say.

[j bean]

Why does a player have to start to develop for the (near) future? Any scrub can put up number playing 35 minutes a night, but what are they doing to help the team be better. I am not getting into a Jose vs. Bayless debate, I am wanting to know why a guy who has washed out with two teams is all of a sudden the guy that should be our starter. How is he any different than Weems last year and James Johnson this year? Grow as a player with the opportunities you earn, not by being given a job you have not earned.

This is my last post in this thread because it seems that people are not getting what I am saying, I don't want to change anyones mind, but I would surely like to hear better arguments that its a rebuild.

It's not that we don't get what you are saying. It's just hard to agree with you when you say something like any scrub can put up numbers playing 35 min a game but what are they doing to help the team be better?
If you are saying Jose could do more than Bayless to help the team in the future then maybe you know something the rest of us doesn't but you haven't explained how Jose has earned the starters role over Bayless.