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  • #31
    Soft Euro,

    Memphis is a team that has too many question marks. They overachieved in the playoffs and they don't have a top tier player on their team, they only won 47 games in the regular season, they aren't a good defensive team. The biggest thing they had going for them in the playoffs was that they matched up well against the teams they faced. A team with Zach Randolph as the best player isn't going very far.

    And what it takes to be a contender is talent. Chicago won 62 games and made it to the Conference Finals with Boozer, who's and undersized PF, and Noah, an undersized center. Miami, the other team in the Finals, had a very undersized center.

    Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.

    And you can't speed up the development process. This is a 22 win team that is more than just a move or two from contending.

    It's my feeling that of the players under contract, only two I can definitely being part of a contending Raptors team, in 4 or 5 years. And that's Davis and Amir. I like DeRozan and I am optimistic about his future, but he's still a long way off from being a rotation player on a contender. Both Amir and Davis have the tools to be very good role players on a Championship team, because they have the intangibles and do the dirty work. DeRozan can't be a role player right now. He doesn't do enough of the little things. He's not a good defender so can't come in and defend, nor is he a good 3 point shooter, so he can't play off anyone. His role needs to be one main options (2 or 3) on offense, but he's simply not good enough, yet.

    Unfortunately ALL the young players need time to develop, and you either play them and live with the consequences (as the Thunder did) or you get veterans and sit them to try and win. You can't have both. Personally, I like DeRozan, Davis, Amir and Valanciunas enough that I'm willing to wait for them to develop.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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    • #32
      The Raptors are incredibly far from contending right now. Ineffably far. If everything goes well, we'll be stuck in a Hawks/Dallas like treadmill, with 50-win seasons and all. Amir's the only player right now that truly help a contending team.
      Soft Euro wrote: View Post
      I'm not as convinced about our frontcourt in Amir and Davis as you are. ('You know what we need? We need more cowbell!' comes up, but is this the place for SNL-references?). Part of their efficiency is because they don't shoot threes... I don't mean that literally, I mean that they are limited in what they do and for one, at the moment they don't space the floor enough (why did I bring up threes? That will only lead to people getting Bargnani images in their head!).
      What? Not shooting threes has nothing to do with their efficiency, nor is is needed for a PF to shoot three. DD and JJ are the problems here, not Amir and Davis. If you wanna talk about spreading the floor then you should have saying that they need a reliable 15 foot jumper, which Amir has, and Davis can develop.

      Also, the reason why the team is at this point is because they've tried to take shortcuts.

      Comment


      • #33
        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        Soft Euro,

        Memphis is a team that has too many question marks. They overachieved in the playoffs and they don't have a top tier player on their team, they only won 47 games in the regular season, they aren't a good defensive team. The biggest thing they had going for them in the playoffs was that they matched up well against the teams they faced. A team with Zach Randolph as the best player isn't going very far.

        And what it takes to be a contender is talent. Chicago won 62 games and made it to the Conference Finals with Boozer, who's and undersized PF, and Noah, an undersized center. Miami, the other team in the Finals, had a very undersized center.

        Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.

        And you can't speed up the development process. This is a 22 win team that is more than just a move or two from contending.

        It's my feeling that of the players under contract, only two I can definitely being part of a contending Raptors team, in 4 or 5 years. And that's Davis and Amir. I like DeRozan and I am optimistic about his future, but he's still a long way off from being a rotation player on a contender. Both Amir and Davis have the tools to be very good role players on a Championship team, because they have the intangibles and do the dirty work. DeRozan can't be a role player right now. He doesn't do enough of the little things. He's not a good defender so can't come in and defend, nor is he a good 3 point shooter, so he can't play off anyone. His role needs to be one main options (2 or 3) on offense, but he's simply not good enough, yet.

        Unfortunately ALL the young players need time to develop, and you either play them and live with the consequences (as the Thunder did) or you get veterans and sit them to try and win. You can't have both. Personally, I like DeRozan, Davis, Amir and Valanciunas enough that I'm willing to wait for them to develop.
        DeMar is the guy I have my money on the most to be a key contributor to a contender. He has shown to be able to contribute in several important ways. His off ball game is impeccable. He has shown to constantly be able to knock down that 18-20 foot shot down. He is an excellent student of the game. His Athleticism rivals the best in the league. He is only entering his 3rd year as a player. Coming off a very nice sophomore showcase, realistically what more do you want? I could go on all day. He has the undoubted desire to not only get better, but to be the best. His defense, handles and 3 point shooting can use a lot of attention.

        Allow me to stress that limiting a player, because of his inability to shoot 3 point shots, does not equate that he is ineffective at putting the ball in the hoop. Although having a 3 point shot would open up his game to a whole new level. It is not the end of the world. As long as you get the job done I'm not too concerned with how you do it. Michael Jordan had a horrible 3 point shooting percentage coming into the league, but that did not stop him from being who he is.This off-season I've read numerous post about DeMar hooping it up, training day in and day out. One post on his twitter wall wrote. 500 mid range 500 long range. Another recent post read something along the lines of Shooting jumpers till my arms fall off. His 3 point shot will get better mark my words. He has the tools to be a great player one day. Don't count him out yet (I am not saying you are, I actually read your posts).

        Who was the last 2nd year player to have back to back 30+Point games? Somebody by the name of Vince Carter, the greatest raptor of all time. He put T.O. on the map plain and simple. IMO he is just as important as any other player in the core moving forward. You are only as strong as your weakest link. He is the only player I would consider a franchise player on this team right now.
        Last edited by Ambidextrious; Thu Aug 25th, 2011, 12:48 AM.
        We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

        Comment


        • #34
          We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

          Comment


          • #35
            Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
            DeMar is the guy I have my money on the most to be a key contributor to a contender. He has shown to be able to contribute in several important ways. His off ball game is impeccable. He has shown to constantly be able to knock down that 18-20 foot shot down. He is an excellent student of the game. His Athleticism rivals the best in the league. He is only entering his 3rd year as a player. Coming off a very nice sophomore showcase, realistically what more do you want? I could go on all day. He has the undoubted desire to not only get better, but to be the best. His defense, handles and 3 point shooting can use a lot of attention.

            Allow me to stress that limiting a player, because of his inability to shoot 3 point shots, does not equate that he is ineffective at putting the ball in the hoop. Although having a 3 point shot would open up his game to a whole new level. It is not the end of the world. As long as you get the job done I'm not too concerned with how you do it. Michael Jordan had a horrible 3 point shooting percentage coming into the league, but that did not stop him from being who he is.This off-season I've read numerous post about DeMar hooping it up, training day in and day out. One post on his twitter wall wrote. 500 mid range 500 long range. Another recent post read something along the lines of Shooting jumpers till my arms fall off. His 3 point shot will get better mark my words. He has the tools to be a great player one day. Don't count him out yet (I am not saying you are, I actually read your posts).

            Who was the last 2nd year player to have back to back 30+Point games? Somebody by the name of Vince Carter, the greatest raptor of all time. He put T.O. on the map plain and simple. IMO he is just as important as any other player in the core moving forward. You are only as strong as your weakest link. He is the only player I would consider a franchise player on this team right now.
            I said that I was very optimistic about DeRozan, for the reasons you stated. I think he's got a good chance to be an All-Star, especially with his work ethic. I disagree about him becoming a franchise player, though. He simply hasn't displayed the skills of a future franchise player. By 21, you can usually see dominating skills from a franchise player. DeRozan still simply has too many holes in his game. He's not good defensively, he's not a good ball handler, he needs to work on his passing, his rebounding needs work.

            As for his 3 point shot, I've said previously that DeRozan doesn't need one in order to excel. My point about bringing it up is that he would need one in order to be a role player on a contender.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            • #36
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              I said that I was very optimistic about DeRozan, for the reasons you stated. I think he's got a good chance to be an All-Star, especially with his work ethic. I disagree about him becoming a franchise player, though. He simply hasn't displayed the skills of a future franchise player. By 21, you can usually see dominating skills from a franchise player. DeRozan still simply has too many holes in his game. He's not good defensively, he's not a good ball handler, he needs to work on his passing, his rebounding needs work.

              As for his 3 point shot, I've said previously that DeRozan doesn't need one in order to excel. My point about bringing it up is that he would need one in order to be a role player on a contender.
              Okay thats fair, you are entitled to your own opinion. I can see where you are coming from when you say DeMar is not a franchise player. I do not agree that you usually can see the dominating skills in a player at that age. I can not name any off the bat at the moment. I'm sure there are some players that develop throughout the years into solid franchise players. Over time, I'm sure DeRozan will be able to improve on his weaknesses and become a good franchise player. What should help him that we have a world class organization where he can go to and get the best help there is to take him to where he needs to go. The Raptors organization has taken Chris Bosh and Vince Carter quite the long way in Toronto. I am sure they can do the same for DeMar.
              We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

              Comment


              • #37
                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                I said that I was very optimistic about DeRozan, for the reasons you stated. I think he's got a good chance to be an All-Star, especially with his work ethic. I disagree about him becoming a franchise player, though. He simply hasn't displayed the skills of a future franchise player. By 21, you can usually see dominating skills from a franchise player. DeRozan still simply has too many holes in his game. He's not good defensively, he's not a good ball handler, he needs to work on his passing, his rebounding needs work.

                As for his 3 point shot, I've said previously that DeRozan doesn't need one in order to excel. My point about bringing it up is that he would need one in order to be a role player on a contender.
                Three years removed from high school with only 1 year in college, I like where he has come in a short time. All those deficiencies will surely improve - in time - given the improvements he has shown. This of course is just my opinion and I was ready to throw in the towel on him at the start of last season.

                Comment


                • #38
                  couple things here:

                  SoftEuro - I think size is an incredible asset to have in this league. But moving Jonas to PF and trading one of our better players in an attempt to win in the short term is not a good idea in my opinion. This team will not be a contender for a while anyways.

                  Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.
                  amen.

                  Derozan - he NEEDS to add a 3pt threat to his game. I'm not a 'yeah 3pter' guy, but you need that diversity and threat from your perimeter players to keep the D honest. There is a reason his position is called shooting guard and not extra-small forward.

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                  • #39
                    Adding a 3pt shot would be huge boost to him on the offensive end no doubt about it. I'd love to see him be able to knock down the corner 3 consistantly this year and slowly branch out to the rest of the arc. Corner 3, tightening up the handle and more aggresivness on the defensive end are the 3 things on my Demar summer wish list.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Soft Euro,

                      Memphis is a team that has too many question marks. They overachieved in the playoffs and they don't have a top tier player on their team, they only won 47 games in the regular season, they aren't a good defensive team. The biggest thing they had going for them in the playoffs was that they matched up well against the teams they faced. A team with Zach Randolph as the best player isn't going very far.

                      And what it takes to be a contender is talent. Chicago won 62 games and made it to the Conference Finals with Boozer, who's and undersized PF, and Noah, an undersized center. Miami, the other team in the Finals, had a very undersized center.

                      Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.
                      There are a lot of teams with talent, only one that wins the championship. I'm not trying to match-up with teams, I happen to think that combining talent with size is the way to a championship (of course more things are important, but that's evident). I showed the size-stats of those teams bigs to indicate what I think is the way to go, not what we need to match-up with. From that viewpoint (good or bad) it follows that you have to beat those teams to win, but that does not mean I try to match-up with them.

                      Chicago does good in the regular season and can come far in the east because there are few teams in the east (at the moment) with championship caliber bigs. In my opinion that's what's holding back the Hawks; they got plenty of talent, but not enough talent is combined with size at the position of the bigs.

                      We'll see about Memphis (if they can keep their players and Randolph doesn't come back out of shape (or in jail) after the lockout). I think with Gay healthy next year they'll go 50+ and will be contending.

                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      And you can't speed up the development process. This is a 22 win team that is more than just a move or two from contending.
                      I can't see why we can't be speeding it up; as you correctly pointed out this would be almost remaking the roster, so indeed more than a few moves. I also think that it would not be gambling away the future as it wouldn't be trading away all young players to get veterans to win now.

                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      It's my feeling that of the players under contract, only two I can definitely being part of a contending Raptors team, in 4 or 5 years. And that's Davis and Amir. I like DeRozan and I am optimistic about his future, but he's still a long way off from being a rotation player on a contender. Both Amir and Davis have the tools to be very good role players on a Championship team, because they have the intangibles and do the dirty work. DeRozan can't be a role player right now. He doesn't do enough of the little things. He's not a good defender so can't come in and defend, nor is he a good 3 point shooter, so he can't play off anyone. His role needs to be one main options (2 or 3) on offense, but he's simply not good enough, yet.
                      Completely agree on DeRozan. I didn't mention him at all as I withhold further judgement until after a year of working with the new coaching staff.

                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Unfortunately ALL the young players need time to develop, and you either play them and live with the consequences (as the Thunder did) or you get veterans and sit them to try and win. You can't have both. Personally, I like DeRozan, Davis, Amir and Valanciunas enough that I'm willing to wait for them to develop.
                      I like both and don't see why that's not possible. Why can you only have young players or veterans? Why not have a mixed roster (with an emphasis on youth). Btw wouldn't another problem with waiting for all your players to peak be that their contracts will also peak at the same time).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        SoftEuro - I think size is an incredible asset to have in this league. But moving Jonas to PF and trading one of our better players in an attempt to win in the short term is not a good idea in my opinion. This team will not be a contender for a while anyways.
                        It would be to attempt to win in the long turn as well, as we wouldn't give up talent, just allocating it to another position via an extra pick or player. Saying that we won't be a contender for a while blocks creative ideas to improve more quickly (and improve more)... I'm just throwing some ideas out there which might not be the cure for all things bad, but with some changes might lead to speeding up the process.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                          There are a lot of teams with talent, only one that wins the championship. I'm not trying to match-up with teams, I happen to think that combining talent with size is the way to a championship (of course more things are important, but that's evident). I showed the size-stats of those teams bigs to indicate what I think is the way to go, not what we need to match-up with. From that viewpoint (good or bad) it follows that you have to beat those teams to win, but that does not mean I try to match-up with them.

                          Chicago does good in the regular season and can come far in the east because there are few teams in the east (at the moment) with championship caliber bigs. In my opinion that's what's holding back the Hawks; they got plenty of talent, but not enough talent is combined with size at the position of the bigs.

                          We'll see about Memphis (if they can keep their players and Randolph doesn't come back out of shape (or in jail) after the lockout). I think with Gay healthy next year they'll go 50+ and will be contending.
                          I have no problem with having a big front court. I just don't think it's necessary to have two big men the size of centers. In the early 80s, everyone wanted to have twin towers to compete with Houston. Of course the Lakers won and they never had a big PF.

                          Then in the late 80s and early 90s, the trend was towards big PGs, but no big PG ever won a Championship after Magic. Then a bunch of small PGs like Isiah, Kevin Johnson, TIm Hardaway and and their like started dominating.

                          It's the same with scoring PGs, now. On the other thread, Ambidextrious is convinced you need a scoring PG because of guys like Chris Paul, Derrick Rose and John Wall.

                          I'm all for making sure you don't get left behind, but it's not as if a frontcourt of Valanciunas, Davis and Amir would be a weak link, here. You're talking as if it would be an undersized frontcourt that would be towered over by the rest of the league.

                          Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                          I can't see why we can't be speeding it up; as you correctly pointed out this would be almost remaking the roster, so indeed more than a few moves. I also think that it would not be gambling away the future as it wouldn't be trading away all young players to get veterans to win now.
                          Speeding what up? Player development or team development? DeRozan isn't going to develop faster with Gasol as the center rather than Valanciunas. As for speeding up wins, it seems to me that you're looking for a short cut. Short cuts, in the NBA are dangerous. It's usually the road to mediocrity.

                          Besides, I LIKE a frontcourt of Valanciunas, Davis and Amir. I can see it being one of the better frontcourts in the league in 3 or 4 years. Why the hell would I want to screw with that?

                          Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                          I like both and don't see why that's not possible. Why can you only have young players or veterans? Why not have a mixed roster (with an emphasis on youth). Btw wouldn't another problem with waiting for all your players to peak be that their contracts will also peak at the same time).
                          The problem is that it creates a conundrum for the coach. Does he go with the veterans to try and win, or does he play the young players and live with the consequences. Most coaches try and win now, because that's how they will be judged. Ask long time Raptor fans about why Brendan Malone was fired.

                          Now I have no problem with sprinkling a couple of veterans in for leadership, but the best players on the team should be the young guys.

                          As for the contracts peaking at the same time, unless you've got a roster full of All-Stars, it shouldn't be a problem unless you start overpaying people (like signing big name free agents). And since it's so difficult to win, having your top players peaking at the same time is optimum.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • #43
                            Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                            It would be to attempt to win in the long turn as well, as we wouldn't give up talent, just allocating it to another position via an extra pick or player. Saying that we won't be a contender for a while blocks creative ideas to improve more quickly (and improve more)... I'm just throwing some ideas out there which might not be the cure for all things bad, but with some changes might lead to speeding up the process.
                            None of us are against acquiring players, especially young ones. But what you're proposing is getting rid of players which, I believe, are Championship calibre players, and replacing them with an unknown. It's not as if the Raptors have a dearth of Championship calibre players. And it's not as if they grow on trees. To me, it makes much more sense to hold onto the few Championship calibre players you have and attempts to add more of them.

                            The gist of your argument seems to be that Valaciunas can't play the center position, because he's not strong enough, and because of that he needs to play PF in order for the Raptors to compete. The two biggest problems with this argument is that there is no guarantee that he will be better at PF and that, even with a guy like Marc Gasol (who won't be available in 2012, unless the entire season is scrapped), the team won't be a contender.

                            Valanciunas' future is at center. I haven't seen or read anything that says otherwise. So why not play him there instead of playing him temporarily at one position, then moving him to another. And then what do you do with the free agent center you signed? It just seems to me you're trying to create a problem where none really exists.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #44
                              Tim, first of all, you have good points, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying. You are right that a central point to my 'ideas' is that I'm doubting that Valanciunas will be able to play at the center position right away. Around the draft there were reports about him being more of a PF than a center in the nba (would have to google hard to find those as I don't know where I read those). It's also something I tend to agree with (not going to hide behind unnamed resources). That's something we'll have to see.

                              In my opinion there is a big difference between valuing the importance of size and saying a scoring point guard is necessary. Scoring can come from any position, undersized bigs will be hard to compensate; e.g. while some people are high on Dejuan Blair, I would never ever want him as our starting power forward because his lack of size can and will be exploited harshly in a playoff series. Btw I have reservations about undersized players at about every position as those players need to be real good to overcome size.

                              With e.g. Gasol the change would not stop; he does not make us a contender, but we'd add more pieces. A main point of mine was also that by signing a free agent center this would open up possibilities to trade for another high pick. But of course, as you said, we can also sign someone at another position of need. It's just that our bigs need more time and I think that bigs need more time to develop. If that's true, changing the position of the young talent to one of the smaller players would not alter the talent level but speed up the teamdevelopment.

                              But to prevent us from going on with this discussion forever ... I'm also pretty much ok with going forward with what we got.

                              One more thing not about this discussion. You said that no other big point guard has won after Magic, but didn't Ron Harper play pointguard on some of Phil Jackson's championship teams? He was pretty big for a pointguard.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                                Tim, first of all, you have good points, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying. You are right that a central point to my 'ideas' is that I'm doubting that Valanciunas will be able to play at the center position right away. Around the draft there were reports about him being more of a PF than a center in the nba (would have to google hard to find those as I don't know where I read those). It's also something I tend to agree with (not going to hide behind unnamed resources). That's something we'll have to see.

                                In my opinion there is a big difference between valuing the importance of size and saying a scoring point guard is necessary. Scoring can come from any position, undersized bigs will be hard to compensate; e.g. while some people are high on Dejuan Blair, I would never ever want him as our starting power forward because his lack of size can and will be exploited harshly in a playoff series. Btw I have reservations about undersized players at about every position as those players need to be real good to overcome size.

                                With e.g. Gasol the change would not stop; he does not make us a contender, but we'd add more pieces. A main point of mine was also that by signing a free agent center this would open up possibilities to trade for another high pick. But of course, as you said, we can also sign someone at another position of need. It's just that our bigs need more time and I think that bigs need more time to develop. If that's true, changing the position of the young talent to one of the smaller players would not alter the talent level but speed up the teamdevelopment.

                                But to prevent us from going on with this discussion forever ... I'm also pretty much ok with going forward with what we got.

                                One more thing not about this discussion. You said that no other big point guard has won after Magic, but didn't Ron Harper play pointguard on some of Phil Jackson's championship teams? He was pretty big for a pointguard.
                                The question is whether a frontline of Valanciunas, Davis and Amir is at all undersized. I don't see how it is, so if something isn't broken, why try and fix it?

                                I recall reading possibly one thing about Valanciunas being able to play PF, but I certainly wouldn't say there were reports of him being more of a PF. Ever.

                                And yes, adding Gasol would be adding a piece, but so would adding a player at one of the positions of need. And it wouldn't cause any logjam issues, either. Right now, the Raptors seem pretty set for the future at the SG, PF and C positions, so why go out and get another C? It just doesn't make much sense, to me.

                                As for Harper, yes, I forgot about him. Although I wouldn't really call him a PG. Pippen was the guy who ran the Chicago offense. Of course he's not exactly small, either. My point, however, is still valid.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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