Everything Terrence Ross

[yabadabayolo]

Bucks have 30 wins and are on pace for close to 50 wins while being .300 against .500 teams. This means 60 wins isn't even an achievement when 9 out or 15 teams are under .500 and both 7-8 playoff teams are at .423. If Toronto wins every series against sub .500 eastern teams they are 3-1 in the series or 27-9. Going .500 against the rest means 50-32.

Lol wut.

He was talking about ross, not about the weak eastern conference

[yabadabayolo]

Well he has added quite a bit of things to his game that I wouldn't necessarily say were his strengths, like driving and pull-ups after several dribbles.

He has been asked to develop to be exactly like DD, and has been compared solely to DD his entire career. New coach/better teammates/system and could see Ross live up to those expectations.

He should definitely stick around. Danny Green was a late bloomer, and they play such a similar game (that is, if Casey stops the whole "drive to the basket development" thing he has going on

The one player who's failing in this 'system' is ross. Everyone else has improved significantly. Lowry became an allstar, derozan became an allstar, JJ is playing lights out, Jv has improved, Lou has revitalized his career, batman isn't considered a soft big anymore. The list goes on forever.

Maybe ross isn't a fit here, maybe he doesn't care. Regardless you can't just keep blaming the 'system' for his shortcomings.

And Danny green was a late 2nd round pick, ross was a lottery pick, it's kinda the norm that he'll developed slowly

[raptors999]

Lol wut.

He was talking about ross, not about the weak eastern conference

Posted wrong place. Jimmy Butler had a terrible third year too and wouldn't have played as much if Bulls had any wing depth. Its called a sophomore jinx because lots of players have them especially if they are changing positions. Moving from SF to SG is a backward development. Most players went SG to SF.

[raptors999]

Posted wrong place. Jimmy Butler had a terrible third year too and wouldn't have played as much if Bulls had any wing depth. Its called a sophomore jinx because lots of players have them especially if they are changing positions. Moving from SF to SG is a backward development. Most players went SG to SF.

GV and Lou struggle to play with each other. Bering the third wheel with that backcourt isnt helping

[Axel]

The one player who's failing in this 'system' is ross. Everyone else has improved significantly. Lowry became an allstar, derozan became an allstar, JJ is playing lights out, Jv has improved, Lou has revitalized his career, batman isn't considered a soft big anymore. The list goes on forever.

Maybe ross isn't a fit here, maybe he doesn't care. Regardless you can't just keep blaming the 'system' for his shortcomings.

And Danny green was a late 2nd round pick, ross was a lottery pick, it's kinda the norm that he'll developed slowly

I think you are being overly generous to the impact this team has had on some of those players.

Lou was successful until he tore his ACL. Raps took a chance based on health. He's healthy again and so performing again. Nothing special the Raps did.

JJ played well last year in Memphis. Honestly don't think his game has taken a step forward since he returned.

Lowry was playing phenomenally in Houston before getting injured and started fighting with the coach. Lowry showed up and played the way he did before losing his job to injury.

JV has improved? He wasn't in the NBA before, so hard to really compare anything. Doubtful that we are maximizing his potential.

Patman is still fairly soft but that one is at least debatable.

Demar had an allstar season last year but has regressed dramatically this year. Which is the real Demar moving forward?

The list goes on forever does it? Really don't think so.

[iblastoff]

I think you are being overly generous to the impact this team has had on some of those players.

Lou was successful until he tore his ACL. Raps took a chance based on health. He's healthy again and so performing again. Nothing special the Raps did.

JJ played well last year in Memphis. Honestly don't think his game has taken a step forward since he returned.

Lowry was playing phenomenally in Houston before getting injured and started fighting with the coach. Lowry showed up and played the way he did before losing his job to injury.

JV has improved? He wasn't in the NBA before, so hard to really compare anything. Doubtful that we are maximizing his potential.

Patman is still fairly soft but that one is at least debatable.

Demar had an allstar season last year but has regressed dramatically this year. Which is the real Demar moving forward?

The list goes on forever does it? Really don't think so.

bizarre little run down here.

lou has hit his career high in points and first time conference player of the week as a raptor in his entire 9 year career.

james johnson DEFINITELY did not play this well in memphis. no idea what you're talking about there.

lowry phenomenal in houston??? since when? ask any houston fan when lowry was on the team.

JV no real comment on that.

patman has definitely upped his gain in rebounding which was his biggest weakness throughout his career. he also became one of the best 3 point threats in the ENTIRE league as a raptor, not to mention reaching career highs in FT makes and assists. not sure how that is 'debatable'.

demar regressing dramatically? demar is still demar who clearly made a leap last year and then ended up getting injured this year. i'm hardly a derozan supporter at all but i even i can admit coming back from injury after 2 months is gonna take time to get back into stride.

[Heatdreamer]

I gave DD great credit from coming back from a major injury and hopefully he will recover to score 22 pts a game, however he is scoring 18 ppg right now.
Lou Williams should be re-signed for 3 years - just like Korver, Reddick or Crawford, this quality of a player is required for a contending team, just as JJ should be extended.
Trade Bait is TRoss, GVasquez, Amir and the filler ( fields, Hansborough & Hayes)

[blackjitsu]

Posted wrong place. Jimmy Butler had a terrible third year too and wouldn't have played as much if Bulls had any wing depth. Its called a sophomore jinx because lots of players have them especially if they are changing positions. Moving from SF to SG is a backward development. Most players went SG to SF.

I agree, but JB was always engaged when he was on the floor. He was struggling in his 3rd season, but I don't remember people questioning his defense. I remember people in Chicago changing their thoughts on JB from a potential stud to being just a defensive specialist.

I think you are being overly generous to the impact this team has had on some of those players.

Lou was successful until he tore his ACL. Raps took a chance based on health. He's healthy again and so performing again. Nothing special the Raps did.

A lot of Lou's scoring in Philly was good player on bad teams. They were hollow numbers. For example, 1 season, he was the top scorer for the sixers coming off the bench. Atlanta's medical staff/front office disagreed with you and moved him for nothing. For what little they got, they must have thought he was done.

JJ played well last year in Memphis. Honestly don't think his game has taken a step forward since he returned.

Yes, he started figuring things in Memphis, but numbers don't lie. HE HAS IMPROVED in Toronto.

Lowry was playing phenomenally in Houston before getting injured and started fighting with the coach. Lowry showed up and played the way he did before losing his job to injury.

And yet he lost his spot to Dragic. Obviously, the coaching staff didn't see what you did. It wasn't until he flourished in Toronto that the SAME COACH that was fine with letting him go was begging him to go back there.

JV has improved? He wasn't in the NBA before, so hard to really compare anything. Doubtful that we are maximizing his potential.

This argument makes zero sense. Ross wasn't in the NBA either. They entered the league the SAME YEAR. Their progress (or lack of) is the most comparable. Centers are supposed to mature at a slower rate than any other position, yet JV is developing at a significantly faster rate than Ross

Patman is still fairly soft but that one is at least debatable.

What? So we're supposed to take your EXPERT opinion as gospel? Numbers, video, etc. support Yaba on this

Demar had an allstar season last year but has regressed dramatically this year. Which is the real Demar moving forward?

Regressed? His assist numbers are UP, his ball handling went from mediocre to point guard level, his team defense has become an integral part of this team -- he can now defend both 2s and 3s (He was even respectable against LBJ). He can literally control the pace of games now. YOU'RE RIGHT NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL.

The list goes on forever does it? Really don't think so.

YOUR list may go on. But video, stats, and the eye test contradict every argument you'll make. Don't just look at that PPG line and judge the quality of play.

It's sad how little of this game you understand. GTFOH

REAL TALK -- The fan in me wants Ross to succeed as a Raptor -- he's athletic, technically does everything right, etc. But the guy mentally checks in and out. You can literally see the difference with his posture, where he has his hands on defense, how he attacks screens, etc., when he is engaged vs when he's spacing out.

The kid needs a sports psychologist, and time. However, the Raps are trying to win and trying to improve now. The Raps need to seriously consider if what Ross needs to reach his potential is a change of scenery. THEY can initiate that change, OR Ross will when his contract is up. If Ross becomes a star elsewhere that's not a failure. Letting him go for nothing and him becoming a star elsewhere IS.

[Axel]

Everything Terrence Ross

bizarre little run down here.

lou has hit his career high in points and first time conference player of the week as a raptor in his entire 9 year career.

james johnson DEFINITELY did not play this well in memphis. no idea what you're talking about there.

lowry phenomenal in houston??? since when? ask any houston fan when lowry was on the team.

JV no real comment on that.

patman has definitely upped his gain in rebounding which was his biggest weakness throughout his career. he also became one of the best 3 point threats in the ENTIRE league as a raptor, not to mention reaching career highs in FT makes and assists. not sure how that is 'debatable'.

demar regressing dramatically? demar is still demar who clearly made a leap last year and then ended up getting injured this year. i'm hardly a derozan supporter at all but i even i can admit coming back from injury after 2 months is gonna take time to get back into stride.

Lowry - 2010/2011 season started 71 games for Houston. While playing 34 mpg, he put up 10.8 FGA - good for 13.4 PPG on 42.6% FG% and 37.6% from 3P%; all while averaging 4.1 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.4 SPG and 2.1 TOVPG. Next year got hurt, got into it with the coach for losing his starting spot due to injury and then was traded.

The last 2 years in Toronto (so basically since Jose has been out of the picture) Lowry has play 35-36 MPG, averaging between 3-5 more FG per game, shooting similar %s (42.3/38%, 42.3/33%), 4.7/4.8 RPG, 7.4/7.2 APG, 1.5 SPG and 2.5 TOVPG.

The only increases have been in minutes, shot attempts, and points. That doesn't sound like development as much as opportunity. If you can't distinguish between the two, then this conversation is pointless.

Lou Williams has had the same stats basically since his 3rd year in the league. Around 23 minutes, 10 shots per game for 12-15 points. His FG% this year is a career low and his 3P% is below his career avg. His assists are also a career low. So while Conference Player of the Week is a swell accomplishment, Lou is basically producing exactly as he has for his entire career. Smart medical gamble by the Front Office does not equal development by the coaching staff.

James Johnson has had no significant changes in his game except his shot selection this year is better than his previous stint in Toronto. His FG% is up but everything else is on par with last year. His per 36 numbers between this year and last year show that last year he was nearly as effective overall (better assists in Memphis but better FG% this year). His game is still the same, small ball 4 with poor perimeter shot (hence why he isn't ideal at the SF).

Demar has regressed this year and it was apparent before the injury. Perhaps he can correct it for next year (perhaps it is due to the long busy summer) but you can't blame his whole season on the injury.

It's sad how little of this game you understand. GTFOH

As to this, it's disrespectful and inappropriate. If you can't form intelligent sentences, and instead choose to resort to pathetic attempts to belittle someone, then perhaps you should go back to RealGM where that sort of grade school rabble can leave the intellectuals here to discuss the Raptors in peace. The facts are clear, if you choose to ignore them, that is fine, but don't try insult other posters just because you disagree.

[Superjudge]

Ross is scrubbing it up right now.

I guess they could wait it out, but if you can use um to grab a sweet super star..... adios muchachos.

[blackjitsu]

As to this, it's disrespectful and inappropriate. If you can't form intelligent sentences, and instead choose to resort to pathetic attempts to belittle someone, then perhaps you should go back to RealGM where that sort of grade school rabble can leave the intellectuals here to discuss the Raptors in peace. The facts are clear, if you choose to ignore them, that is fine, but don't try insult other posters just because you disagree.

Give me a break. You've been picking and choosing what numbers you want to use instead of properly weighting them FOR YEARS. I do not have the time to sit down, and write a text book to breakdown the way you pick and choose what means something and what does not. It is tiring. Furthermore, If you actually look at my post -- which you clearly did not -- I made clear statements of why your assessments are flawed.

Some of what you're saying literally makes no logical sense, and you are comparing my statements to RealGM?

You stated that:

JV has improved? He wasn't in the NBA before, so hard to really compare anything. Doubtful that we are maximizing his potential.

What!? Neither was Ross!! They were kids 3 years ago! 1 was in NCAA the other was playing in Europe!

We all saw where they were their rookie year! We've all seen the growth from here to there -- how is that comparison not fair?

Seriously, everything you write is obsessed with the idea that you're brilliant and anyone who disagrees better not say anything or they're a horrible, horrible person. I might of told you to get out of here, but I'm not the guy comparing members here to a board where the idea of basketball knowledge is akin to tiddlywinks -- seriously.

I believe I've said this to you and your cronies multiple times -- Read everything I write. I countered all of your arguments, you said I should go to RealGM because of 5 letters. Now who appears more immature?

[Axel]

Give me a break. #1 You've been picking and choosing what numbers you want to use instead of properly weighting them FOR YEARS. I do not have the time to sit down, and write a text book to breakdown the way you pick and choose what means something and what does not. It is tiring. Furthermore, #2 If you actually look at my post -- which you clearly did not -- I made clear statements of why your assessments are flawed.

Some of what you're saying literally makes no logical sense, and you are comparing my statements to RealGM?


What!? Neither was Ross!! They were kids 3 years ago! 1 was in NCAA the other was playing in Europe!

We all saw where they were their rookie year! We've all seen the growth from here to there -- how is that comparison not fair?

Seriously, #3 everything you write is obsessed with the idea that you're brilliant and anyone who disagrees better not say anything or they're a horrible, horrible person. I might of told you to get out of here, but #4 I'm not the guy comparing members here to a board where the idea of basketball knowledge is akin to tiddlywinks -- seriously.

I believe I've said this to #5 you and your cronies multiple times -- Read everything I write. I countered all of your arguments, you said I should go to RealGM because of 5 letters. Now who appears more immature?

There are several reasons why I didn't respond to your post point-by-point;

1. If you respond by posting into my post, I can't quote it back and frankly didn't feel like taking the time to go copy your points into my response.
2. By responding to iblastoff, I presented counter-points that touched on all the same subjects; didn't realize your ego needed a personal response.
3. Your pathetic attempts to belittle me, don't exactly endear me to provide you much of a response. If you want to have intelligent conversation, then I am more than happy to oblige.

Bold #1 - I've been picking and choosing numbers? In the post I made, I used everyday values such as minutes per game, points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game, field goal attempts per game and shooting percentages. How exactly is that "picking and choosing without properly weighting them"? Secondly, for years? Are you serious or just trolling? The numbers are the numbers, I don't make them up. Perhaps you should go write a textbook breaking down my posts, you'd likely learn something.

Bold #2 - I read your post. I saw nothing of real value that needed addressing beyond what iblastoff mentioned. So while it may be clear that I didn't choose to respond to it point by point, the only thing clear by my response is that I disagree.

Bold #3 - Again, you seem to be making this a very personal attack. Who the fuck are you? You seem to have this weird one-sided hatred of me and, frankly, I don't know who you are, and don't care. So save the personal bullshit and grow up. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is a horrible person, but I think anyone who acts like you, perhaps is. Am I not supposed to believe what I type? Should I write everything as a fucking question? That way, I wont offend you with my perceived "self adoring brilliance"?

Bold #4 - I didn't compare members here to the "tiddlywinks" league, I compared you. You and you alone.

Bold #5 - Cronies? WTF? Any cronies out there? Hello, cronies? hmmmm....guess not. Guess it's just the illusions of one individual.

Before I go on, remember that the original comment that I was responding to said "The one player who's failing in this 'system' is ross. Everyone else has improved significantly."

Now, to the individual points response you seem to be so desperately craving:

"A lot of Lou's scoring in Philly was good player on bad teams. They were hollow numbers. For example, 1 season, he was the top scorer for the sixers coming off the bench. Atlanta's medical staff/front office disagreed with you and moved him for nothing. For what little they got, they must have thought he was done. "

Lou played in Philly for 7 seasons. They made the playoffs in 4 of those seasons. Each season he was the "scorer off the bench" guy; exactly what he did in Atlanta for 2 seasons (both times made playoffs) and EXACTLY what he is doing for the Raptors. His game hasn't changed, just the jersey changed. So while Atlanta's front office decided to move on for what was a combination of medical and salary cap purposes, the Raps front office acquired a fully developed player and plugged him into the same role he has had his entire career. The coaching staff has done nothing for Lou's career, except give him his career norm minutes.

"Yes, he started figuring things in Memphis, but numbers don't lie. HE HAS IMPROVED in Toronto."

What numbers? His numbers are nearly identical across the board. A few more minutes here than in Memphis, but not really much change. He came back to the Raptors a more mature and intelligent player than when he left. Casey acquired a better player, he didn't make him one.

"And yet he lost his spot to Dragic. Obviously, the coaching staff didn't see what you did. It wasn't until he flourished in Toronto that the SAME COACH that was fine with letting him go was begging him to go back there."

Yes, Lowry lost his starting spot to Dragic due to injury. The coaching staff in Houston decided to go with a different player, despite Lowry's very successful season the year prior (and nearly identical statistically to the last season and a half we've seen). But Lowry had another season in Toronto, one where this very coach decided to replace him with Jose Calderon when Lowry got hurt. That season wasn't so good either. It wasn't until Jose was traded, and Lowry got the full opportunity to start did he perform at a high level AGAIN. 71 games as a starter that was as good as the last year and a half. He didn't develop, the system didn't create him, he was a great player who struggled when presented with adversity. Masai removed that positional competition, allowing Lowry to thrive once again as a starter. Once again, Casey received a better player, he didn't create one.

"This argument makes zero sense. Ross wasn't in the NBA either. They entered the league the SAME YEAR. Their progress (or lack of) is the most comparable. Centers are supposed to mature at a slower rate than any other position, yet JV is developing at a significantly faster rate than Ross."

Do you honestly believe that this "system" and coach is the best fit for JV? Both Ross and JV have had no other NBA coaching, so we can't compare the impacts that this coach/system have had to their success. Great players can succeed despite a coach/system. Without the data, there isn't any real way to say that this system is benefiting either one.

"What? So we're supposed to take your EXPERT opinion as gospel? Numbers, video, etc. support Yaba on this"

Again, you seem to emphasize the personal nature of your posts. Expert? I don't get paid, but I certainly know what I am talking about.

Since I missed this point in my response to iblastoff, here is his comment, "patman has definitely upped his gain in rebounding which was his biggest weakness throughout his career. he also became one of the best 3 point threats in the ENTIRE league as a raptor, not to mention reaching career highs in FT makes and assists. not sure how that is 'debatable'."

The numbers that are real though, show that Patman is scoring as his career average. His rebounding is technically lower than it was in Sac before the trade (5.8 to 5.5). His FG% is down but his 3P% is up (highest of his career was after he was traded to Sac from Houston - dude seems to get hot from deep after a trade). His FT makes are up by 0.1 and attempts by 0.2 - not exactly groundbreaking achievement. His assists are up, that is good. But overall, not a statistically significant improvement in any area.

"Regressed? His assist numbers are UP, his ball handling went from mediocre to point guard level, his team defense has become an integral part of this team -- he can now defend both 2s and 3s (He was even respectable against LBJ). He can literally control the pace of games now. YOU'RE RIGHT NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL."

Regressed, verb, past tense, defined as "return to a former or less developed state." Demar this year is less than the Demar of last year and is most similar to the Demar of previous seasons, so yes, by definition, REGRESSED.

Ball handling at a point guard level? How can you honestly say that? Yes, he has more assists than years past (still less than last year); he also has a career high in turnovers. HIGH VOLUME. 28% USAGE. Of the 86 players (guards, since 2000) to have a usage of at least 28%, Demar's career best season (last year) was the 15th lowest in assists per game. His current season (3.3 APG) would be bottom 10.

He is shooting a career worst (which is saying something since he wasn't a good shooter to begin with).

So yes, regressed. I could go into more detail, but that is really for another thread (and has surely been detailed by several "cronies" already).

[Superjudge]

What the hell is a tiddlywink?

I had a dunk I used to do, I used to call it the Larry nance, as it was a copy of one of his.... I think now, I will rename it, tiddlywink!

[Axel]

What the hell is a tiddlywink?

I had a dunk I used to do, I used to call it the Larry nance, as it was a copy of one of his.... I think now, I will rename it, tiddlywink!

hahaha, thanks Craig. I needed that laugh.

Would you really call your dunk Larry Nance? I think Larry would be easier to say but then everyone would think Bird. And you can't really call it Nance, cause that wouldn't be the "manliest" of names.

[Superjudge]

At 31 secs. for me, I called it the "larry nance" hahaha