Everything Dwane Casey

[Axel]

I'm not arguing at all that he...along with just about every other player...is better when he's looking to move the ball. I'm saying that it isn't what he's best at doing. It's like asking Biyombo to focus less on rebounding and blocking shots and more on post moves (extreme example I know). Really difficult for a player to make that switch when it's not their bread and butter. We saw the effort to move the ball more this season so I'm hoping they continue in that direction, but sometimes the dramatic over night changes the forum expects are a bit out there.

Not really because post moves are offence and blocking shots is defence.

Basketball isn't so complicated that Demar can't be asked to use the PnR with JV more and ISO less; it's really just a matter of the coach calling out the set they want run. Calling less Demar ISO would dramatically make Demar a better player because he has already demonstrated that he is better in a PnR facilitator role.

[LJ2]

Not really because post moves are offence and blocking shots is defence.

Basketball isn't so complicated that Demar can't be asked to use the PnR with JV more and ISO less; it's really just a matter of the coach calling out the set they want run. Calling less Demar ISO would dramatically make Demar a better player because he has already demonstrated that he is better in a PnR facilitator role.

If it were that easy or came that naturally to him he would be a super star and not a borderline allstar. I find it hard to believe that the only thing that has held him back all of these years was the play calling. Hopefully learning to play with his head up is one of the things he works on over the summer.

[Barolt]

If it were that easy or came that naturally to him he would be a super star and not a borderline allstar. I find it hard to believe that the only thing that has held him back all of these years was the play calling. Hopefully learning to play with his head up is one of the things he works on over the summer.

I'm starting to come around on this with Casey. Is it the playcalling?

Because if it is, why did our offense look so good with the Lowry+Bench unit all year, or in the two late-season games when DeMar and Lowry both sat?

Why did the offense look so good during so many first quarters when DeMar was facilitating before going back to trying to get his later in the game?

There definitely were plays in our playbook designed to create player and ball movement, we just didn't use them when DeMar was on the floor nearly as much. Was that Casey not calling them, or DeMar freestyling?

And before someone tells me that Casey would bench him if he was freestyling, DeMar has flat out said that Casey "let's him do what he wants on offense".

[Axel]

If it were that easy or came that naturally to him he would be a super star and not a borderline allstar. I find it hard to believe that the only thing that has held him back all of these years was the play calling. Hopefully learning to play with his head up is one of the things he works on over the summer.

It's not. Poor decision making and poor handles were also big factors. His handles have improved. His decision making can be coached up. He showed how devastating the DD-JV PnR is this season, that simply needs to get called at a higher rate than "Demar dribbles into defence".

[Gambino]

I'm starting to come around on this with Casey. Is it the playcalling?

Because if it is, why did our offense look so good with the Lowry+Bench unit all year, or in the two late-season games when DeMar and Lowry both sat?

Why did the offense look so good during so many first quarters when DeMar was facilitating before going back to trying to get his later in the game?

There definitely were plays in our playbook designed to create player and ball movement, we just didn't use them when DeMar was on the floor nearly as much. Was that Casey not calling them, or DeMar freestyling?

And before someone tells me that Casey would bench him if he was freestyling, DeMar has flat out said that Casey "let's him do what he wants on offense".

You realize that while the Lowry + Bench lineup was our best, it's not like the DeMar + Bench lineup was exactly bad, it was pretty good this year also even though he's a bad fit with CoJo in the backcourt.

[Barolt]

You realize that while the Lowry + Bench lineup was our best, it's not like the DeMar + Bench lineup was exactly bad, it was pretty good this year also even though he's a bad fit with CoJo in the backcourt.

It was different though, in terms of how it worked(and I was referring to style in terms of how we scored and generated offense, more than how effective we were at it). The Lowry+Bench unit spread the ball. The DeMar+Bench unit had DeMar generating more than 1/3 of all offense for himself, with a low assist rate. That lineups offense was entirely based on DeMar's ability to score by himself, which is why the DeMar+Bench group was terrible in the playoffs.

[Gambino]

It was different though, in terms of how it worked(and I was referring to style in terms of how we scored and generated offense, more than how effective we were at it). The Lowry+Bench unit spread the ball. The DeMar+Bench unit had DeMar generating more than 1/3 of all offense for himself, with a low assist rate. That lineups offense was entirely based on DeMar's ability to score by himself, which is why the DeMar+Bench group was terrible in the playoffs.

You may not like the style, but the reality is that in the regular season it was very successful and nearly as good (+13.7 netRTG compared to +16.4 netRTG) as the Lowry + Bench lineup.

And I guess it was 'terrible' in the playoffs, but as a stats guy you should realize that a 28 minute sample size over 11 games doesn't really tell you much. And it mostly would have to do with DeMar just generally not playing well until the last 7 or 8 games of the playoffs, moreso than the lineup not stylistically working.

Also how did you calculate the DeMar using "1/3 of all offense for himself" or did you just guess that? Not saying it's wrong, probably close to accurate considering his usage overall was around 30%.

*Sidenote the DeMar+Bench lineup was basically our best defensive lineup this season. I know we're talking about offense at the moment but thought that was worth mentioning.

[Barolt]

You may not like the style, but the reality is that in the regular season it was very successful and nearly as good (+13.7 netRTG compared to +16.4 netRTG) as the Lowry + Bench lineup.

And I guess it was 'terrible' in the playoffs, but as a stats guy you should realize that a 28 minute sample size over 11 games doesn't really tell you much. And it mostly would have to do with DeMar just generally not playing well until the last 7 or 8 games of the playoffs, moreso than the lineup not stylistically working.

Also how did you calculate the DeMar using "1/3 of all offense for himself" or did you just guess that? Not saying it's wrong, probably close to accurate considering his usage overall was around 30%.

*Sidenote the DeMar+Bench lineup was basically our best defensive lineup this season. I know we're talking about offense at the moment but thought that was worth mentioning.

Keep in mind, the original post you were replying to I was discussing whether the heavy iso playstyle reliant on simply two guys creating everything was because of Casey or DeMar, not about the efficacy of it at all. I understand DeMar+Bench was effective during the season, but it was a philosophical debate about style more than a debate about effectiveness.

http://nbawowy-52108.onmodulus.net/v...2krlelseylow29

Seeing as you asked... when the DeMar+Bench lineup was on the floor, DeMar's usage was 38.6%. To be fair, his assist rate was also 25.8% with that group as well. But the answer to that group defensively seems to be pretty clearly: "Stop DeMar".

And it's ironic that you give me shit for using a small sample size in the playoffs, then bring up an even smaller portion of the playoffs sample size to say that he wasn't playing well until the last 7 or 8 games of the playoffs.

If the entire playoffs is too small a sample size to read anything into, the last 7 or 8 games when DeMar was decent are also too small a sample size.

[DanH]

You realize that while the Lowry + Bench lineup was our best, it's not like the DeMar + Bench lineup was exactly bad, it was pretty good this year also even though he's a bad fit with CoJo in the backcourt.

Yeah, Lowry plus bench was +16.4 net rating for the year. DeRozan plus bench was +13.7. The defence was surprisingly actually better with DeMar out there, while the offence was better with Lowry.

[Gambino]

Keep in mind, the original post you were replying to I was discussing whether the heavy iso playstyle reliant on simply two guys creating everything was because of Casey or DeMar, not about the efficacy of it at all. I understand DeMar+Bench was effective during the season, but it was a philosophical debate about style more than a debate about effectiveness.

http://nbawowy-52108.onmodulus.net/v...2krlelseylow29

Seeing as you asked... when the DeMar+Bench lineup was on the floor, DeMar's usage was 38.6%. To be fair, his assist rate was also 25.8% with that group as well. But the answer to that group defensively seems to be pretty clearly: "Stop DeMar".

And it's ironic that you give me shit for using a small sample size in the playoffs, then bring up an even smaller portion of the playoffs sample size to say that he wasn't playing well until the last 7 or 8 games of the playoffs.

If the entire playoffs is too small a sample size to read anything into, the last 7 or 8 games when DeMar was decent are also too small a sample size.

The difference is I'm not drawing any conclusions from his 7 or 8 games. You're the one using the 28 minutes in the playoffs to conclude that DeMar+Bench doesn't work.

[DanH]

Keep in mind, the original post you were replying to I was discussing whether the heavy iso playstyle reliant on simply two guys creating everything was because of Casey or DeMar, not about the efficacy of it at all. I understand DeMar+Bench was effective during the season, but it was a philosophical debate about style more than a debate about effectiveness.

http://nbawowy-52108.onmodulus.net/v...2krlelseylow29

Seeing as you asked... when the DeMar+Bench lineup was on the floor, DeMar's usage was 38.6%. To be fair, his assist rate was also 25.8% with that group as well. But the answer to that group defensively seems to be pretty clearly: "Stop DeMar".

And it's ironic that you give me shit for using a small sample size in the playoffs, then bring up an even smaller portion of the playoffs sample size to say that he wasn't playing well until the last 7 or 8 games of the playoffs.

If the entire playoffs is too small a sample size to read anything into, the last 7 or 8 games when DeMar was decent are also too small a sample size.

But Lowry's usage with that group is about 33%.

[Barolt]

The difference is I'm not drawing any conclusions from his 7 or 8 games. You're the one using the 28 minutes in the playoffs to say DeMar+Bench doesn't work.

No, I'm saying it didn't work in the playoffs when DeMar's offense fell off, because that's how the offense worked for that unit.

I'm not saying it doesn't work.

And again, it was a stylistic discussion over whether the iso-style offense was due to DeMar or Casey.

My original point, that you keep derailing, is that I'm not completely convinced that Casey's offense is that limited, because during long stretches(typically first quarters or when DeMar is off the floor later in games) our offense can feature ball and player movement.

And as I've said multiple times, we even often have that movement in the first quarter of games. It just disappears later.

[Barolt]

But Lowry's usage with that group is about 33%.

Fair. Which also would partially explain the massive drop-off that unit had late in the season when Lowry couldn't shoot.

Also though, the Lowry version had a 57% assist rate, while the DeMar version had a 45.5% assist rate. Large difference there.

I'm really just trying to ask the question of whether the limited offense is a factor of Casey or a factor of the nature of the roster, given that we did see impressive ball movement for stretches this year, even in Casey's offense.

So which subset of the play is the outlier from what the coach wants? When we had movement, or when we didn't?

[Gambino]

Fair. Which also would partially explain the massive drop-off that unit had late in the season when Lowry couldn't shoot.

Also though, the Lowry version had a 57% assist rate, while the DeMar version had a 45.5% assist rate. Large difference there.

I'm really just trying to ask the question of whether the limited offense is a factor of Casey or a factor of the nature of the roster, given that we did see impressive ball movement for stretches this year, even in Casey's offense.

So which subset of the play is the outlier from what the coach wants? When we had movement, or when we didn't?

The difference in assist rate could have a lot to do with the fact that the primary usage guy in the Lowry + Bench lineup (Lowry of course) basically becomes an off-ball spot-up shooter a lot of the time in that lineup. While in the DeMar + Bench lineup, the primary usage guy (DeRozan) is operating mostly pick and roll as a facilitator and scorer.

[DanH]

I don't know that DeRozan is the driver for lower assist rates. He's pretty close to middle of the pack for on-court assist rates for the team. Joseph, Patterson and Biyombo are lower. If DeMar was the one driving the lack of ball movement, I think he'd end up with the worst on-court AST% as whenever he sat the team would revert to its presumably intended ball-moving ways.