Everything VanVleet

[DanH]

1. That doesn't make any sense.
He can still get open even if defences are focused on him.
(See Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, prime Klay, Dame.. etc etc etc)

2. You don't admit that Fred has slowed down?

Sure, he's slowed down.

The proportion of his shots that are incredibly difficult are not a function of that, it is a function of the offence breaking down and needing to be bailed out, and the other creators not creating enough advantages consistently in that offence.

[Kagemusha]

Sure, he's slowed down.

The proportion of his shots that are incredibly difficult are not a function of that, it is a function of the offence breaking down and needing to be bailed out, and the other creators not creating enough advantages consistently in that offence.

Well when you the (self) designated leader of the team and it's oldest core vet, you are supposed to be the one bailing out the team when the chaotic no-structure offence breaks down, which is not surprising at all.

[golden]

Sure, he's slowed down.

The proportion of his shots that are incredibly difficult are not a function of that, it is a function of the offence breaking down and needing to be bailed out, and the other creators not creating enough advantages consistently in that offence.

Fred takes “incredibly difficult” shots because he’s 5’10” and unathletic (by NBA standards).

If he was 6’10” with the exact same skill set, he’d be KD.

[DanH]

Well when you the (self) designated leader of the team and it's oldest core vet, you are supposed to be the one bailing out the team when the chaotic no-structure offence breaks down, which is not surprising at all.

OK? That doesn't change the fact that the difficult shot spectrum is the primary cause for his lower efficiency.

If you think primary scorer is Fred's ideal role I don't know what to tell you.

[Shredder]

My opposition to re-signing Fred is more his defensive decline than his Offensive. His slow down is more obvious when he is getting blown by on the perimeter. I don't think he could muster the Box and 1 on Curry any more.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Not sure how much more clear I can be with "I don't love all of Fred's shot selection."

Of course there are times. But mostly it's just him being stuck with the ball late.

There is a proportion of his shots that come from late clock.... but how much of them are coming from that situation? Also on those same shots how much of those did he miss opportunities to look for other advantages.


I will give you an example of a play. Go back to the bubble and look the last play. I counted that he called off an ibaka screen twice, looked off norm who had a weaker defender on him to iso against grant williams and let the clock wind down... he had time for that one to make a play. So how many of the plays are like that where he has the ball with... even 14-10 seconds on the clock.

In terms of slowing down the offense its fairly obvious just looking at the transition passes he makes vs lowry.


Saying I don't like all of Fred's shot selection then saying its mostly him getting stuck with the ball late doesn't give full context so have you looked into more of the context?

If you haven't then when you do does it change your opinion?


I don't know how many times it is him just getting the ball with 5 seconds left and having to "make something work".

[TrueTorontoFan]

OK? That doesn't change the fact that the difficult shot spectrum is the primary cause for his lower efficiency.

If you think primary scorer is Fred's ideal role I don't know what to tell you.

that isn't what I think the problem is no one is suggesting he should be a primary scorer. I think the problem is how much does he want to run the offence. Which is a valid question though no one seems to have a true answer for with out asking him out right or knowing his inner circle.

I do think they have a lot of freedom so I think in a free thinking offence it does appear that he wants to play this way or at least that accounts for something. What percentage? I dont know.

[BrydenB]

My opposition to re-signing Fred is more his defensive decline than his Offensive. His slow down is more obvious when he is getting blown by on the perimeter. I don't think he could muster the Box and 1 on Curry any more.

This is 100% my concern as well. If his defensive decline continues, he'll have to be an elite offensive player to break even.

[Primer]

This is 100% my concern as well. If his defensive decline continues, he'll have to be an elite offensive player to break even.

And he's never been an elite offensive player. He's a streaky shooter who has bad season averages.

[DanH]

There is a proportion of his shots that come from late clock.... but how much of them are coming from that situation? Also on those same shots how much of those did he miss opportunities to look for other advantages.


I will give you an example of a play. Go back to the bubble and look the last play. I counted that he called off an ibaka screen twice, looked off norm who had a weaker defender on him to iso against grant williams and let the clock wind down... he had time for that one to make a play. So how many of the plays are like that where he has the ball with... even 14-10 seconds on the clock.

In terms of slowing down the offense its fairly obvious just looking at the transition passes he makes vs lowry.


Saying I don't like all of Fred's shot selection then saying its mostly him getting stuck with the ball late doesn't give full context so have you looked into more of the context?

If you haven't then when you do does it change your opinion?


I don't know how many times it is him just getting the ball with 5 seconds left and having to "make something work".

1/4 of Fred's shots come with 7 seconds or less remaining on the clock, the shots where his efficiency dips.

Given the average dribble count and touch time per touch I quoted above, the scenarios you describe are very rare.

[DanH]

This is 100% my concern as well. If his defensive decline continues, he'll have to be an elite offensive player to break even.

He's an 86th percentile defender per EPM. Would need to decline a LOT before he would need to be an elite offensive player to break even.

[Yuri Gagarin]

He's an 86th percentile defender per EPM. Would need to decline a LOT before he would need to be an elite offensive player to break even.

Wow 86th percentile! Others gms must not look at epm or shot spectrum and how fred gets stuck with the ball (everyone elses fault) when it was at the deadline cuz fred sounds off the charts amazing. You see stuff 29 gms didnt see when they offered shit all for fred

dan you’re digging so deep for excuses. I told you a year ago he most likely peaked and will begin decline. and hes a shithead in the locker room

[TrueTorontoFan]

1/4 of Fred's shots come with 7 seconds or less remaining on the clock, the shots where his efficiency dips.

Given the average dribble count and touch time per touch I quoted above, the scenarios you describe are very rare.

so that isn't really digging into the possessions

that is just looking at the numbers and making a correlation. If you are outlining that 25% of his shots are coming with the clock winding down again I ask what is happening during those 25% of possessions in terms of sets and ball movement.

[iblastoff]

lol at all these crybaby anti-fred posts and demanding dan explain every single stat to them.

and even when they are explained, they're just dismissed with dumb ass responses "but fred is still a shithead!"

[Quirk]

lol at all these crybaby anti-fred posts and demanding dan explain every single stat to them.

and even when they are explained, they're just dismissed with dumb ass responses "but fred is still a shithead!"

it's so cringe, dan deserves some sort of medal of patience.