Everything Derozan

[DanH]

Safe bet. The last 500 pages have been added in less than a year.

Yeah, based on the exponential nature of the thread, another 1000 pages might happen before the year is out.

[slaw]

They use VORP - Beal has almost as much as DD in half the minutes. What it doesn't take into account are the reasons for Beal having so many fewer minutes.
Would make little or no difference in a case like Paul George where hi injury was a freak, with seemingly no residual effects. Beal's may well be chronic - this is not taken into account whatsoever.

I think their modelling takes age into account, so, that would account for a big chunk of it, actually. I believe they model for a drop-off at 27 and DD is 26(??) so they're assuming a fall off in his production while they'd be modelling Beal to still be moving to his peak....

EDIT: I am passing along something I read elsewhere so not sure if it is correct..... big caveat.

[Superjudge]

I don't know where this straw man "I'm sick of people saying DeMar just stayed here because he's loyal and not because of business!" opinion sprang up from in the last couple of pages. I haven't read anything like that, but maybe I missed half a dozen posts somewhere that failed to acknowledge that a major part of this discussion is the fact that DeMar just signed the biggest contract in franchise history. I mean it's easy to forget, I guess?

Also funny that in this same forum we're still bitching about Vince leaving. Almost 12 years ago. And Bosh (who left at the exact point in his career that DeMar is at this summer) leaving. And T-Mac leaving. And Durant is getting mocked by a couple of people here for leaving OKC.

There's no need to either understate the loyalty angle, overstate the loyalty angle, or create a false dichotomy between "loyalty" and "business" to rail against. All anybody ever said is loyalty a thing, and DeMar has it, and we're benefiting from it. The money is a thing too, and it's been talked about a ton over the past couple of days and will continue to be.

One error that definitely needs to be corrected is the suggestion that DeMar just started acting loyal as a lead-up to negotiations. You can't argue the fact that the guy has been reppin' the city for 7 years straight without complaint. I respect that without feeling the need to contextualize by offering several criticisms.

I would argue he's done more, along with his tight group of buddies that have played here, for Toronto as a city in the NBA than Vince did.

[JawsGT]

Can we not just compromise and say that being 'loyal' and staying in Toronto was also the best business/career decision for Demar and that he got paid more for that loyalty than he could get anywhere else (because Raps could offer the 5th year). And can we also say that paying DD instead of losing him for nothing was also a smart business decision for the Raps - assuming DD keeps up his efficiency from this season and doesn't bomb out in the playoffs again.

Being even more loyal would be doing what Wade has done in Miami, which is basically being underpaid by Pat Riley his whole career and never getting a chance to make it up (like Dirk is getting with the Mavs this season).

The bold isn't the same at all. Demar taking a pay cut would have done absolutely nothing to help the Raps improve the team, which is what Wade and Dirk did in past seasons. The loyalty thing for me is simply that he didn't entertain other teams. He gave the Raps the first shot, and if satisfied, would sign without checking out what other teams were pitching, which is what he said he would do. And lo and behold he did just that. He could have still listened to others despite the great offer from MU. He could have gotten similar money elsewhere and I really doubt the 5th year was the deciding factor. Great business decision for sure. But ultimately it signals that he really wants to be here. That deserves to be acknowledged and I don't know why posters are getting upset about it. It's one of the great things about Demar, and I don't think anyone is claiming that Demar's loyalty was the only factor.

[c-troop]

I would argue he's done more, along with his tight group of buddies that have played here, for Toronto as a city in the NBA than Vince did.

Forreal. This is a new generation. Most young Raptors fans never even saw VC play for the Raps aside from youtube slam dunk contests and highlight videos. The DeMar hype is really at an all-time high.

[golden]

The bold isn't the same at all. Demar taking a pay cut would have done absolutely nothing to help the Raps improve the team, which is what Wade and Dirk did in past seasons. The loyalty thing for me is simply that he didn't entertain other teams. He gave the Raps the first shot, and if satisfied, would sign without checking out what other teams were pitching, which is what he said he would do. And lo and behold he did just that. He could have still listened to others despite the great offer from MU. He could have gotten similar money elsewhere and I really doubt the 5th year was the deciding factor. Great business decision for sure. But ultimately it signals that he really wants to be here. That deserves to be acknowledged and I don't know why posters are getting upset about it. It's one of the great things about Demar, and I don't think anyone is claiming that Demar's loyalty was the only factor.

Mostly agree with what you're saying, but what I'm also seeing is that as soon as you mention that the money the Raps offered was also a huge factor in his decision (i.e. Raps didn't low-ball $/yr + 5th yr) and what Demar's options could be, you get posters jumping on your post, saying you're being "uncharitable" and/or insulting to DeMar. It's like you can't even talk about the business aspects of this (money, Demar's options, how the Durant situation factored in,....) without pissing off a some people who only want to focus on the feel-good part of the story where an all-star player in his prime chose us because he loved us. It's not a straw-man, as SR pointed out, since I've had a few of those comments directed at my posts

IMO, that's what a discussion forum should be about, to be able to look at any topic from a 360 point-of-view until you've beaten it to death. Not try to cut people off from discussing the unpleasant aspects (like dirty business details) because it takes away from the good vibes of the loyalty narrative.

[Axel]

Demar has never really ever had a reason to be not loyal to the Raptors. He's been given big minutes, big dollars and had several coaches that don't seem to mind his defensive issues all since day one - he's had it pretty good here. You have to wonder if we had hired a coach like Thibs instead of Casey (wasn't an option) if Demar would have had a different trajectory since Thibs would be a hard ass on defence.

There is no question, he is loyal to Toronto but most players want opportunity over everything else at the start of their career and he's received that in spades here.

[Chr1s1anL]

Seeing how the Wade thing went down. Appreciate the fact that DeMar didn't want to take any meetings with other team even more. Also Masai on not low balling him. Great job on both ends.

[Chr1s1anL]

Apparently Kyle Lowry was in the meeting with DeMar DeRozan

[big boi]

Apparently Kyle Lowry was in the meeting with DeMar DeRozan

That's cool

[Sinbad]

Demar has never really ever had a reason to be not loyal to the Raptors. He's been given big minutes, big dollars and had several coaches that don't seem to mind his defensive issues all since day one - he's had it pretty good here. You have to wonder if we had hired a coach like Thibs instead of Casey (wasn't an option) if Demar would have had a different trajectory since Thibs would be a hard ass on defence.

There is no question, he is loyal to Toronto but most players want opportunity over everything else at the start of their career and he's received that in spades here.

It's an interesting what-if. The organization was desperate for a "star" when Bosh left for Miami, which may have factored into the pass that DeMar got from Triano and then Casey regarding his poor defense and shot selection. Somebody needed to take those shots given how bad the team was before the miraculous turnaround of 2013-2014, but they could have at least tried to hold him accountable. Former Raptor coach Butch Carter made a similar point on the Fan 590 before they banned him, and event went as far as to say that DeMar was "anatomically incapable of defending because he never gets into a stance". That wouldn't have been the case under Thibodeau, and DeMar wouldn't have seen the floor if he didn't put forth a competent defensive effort. I wonder how much that and the possible effects of having a hard-ass for a coach factored into Masai's decision to pass on Thibodeau when the Bulls sacked him last year.

[Chr1s1anL]

Raps can sign/announce DeRozan today but no plans as of now. Still chance they stay under cap, make a move and sign DD w Bird rights.

— Michael Grange (@michaelgrange) July 7, 2016

[golden]

Seeing how the Wade thing went down. Appreciate the fact that DeMar didn't want to take any meetings with other team even more. Also Masai on not low balling him. Great job on both ends.

The Wade situation demonstrates pretty clearly that loyalty in business is a sketchy concept at best, something that is highly conditional and deferred. Money complicates even the purest of intentions, as it always does. Wade was clearly expecting to get his loyalty back-pay on this deal and Riley/Arison stiffed him, so he got insulted or felt betrayed. No doubt leading up to the negotiations, Demar's agent (or any half-decent representative) would have made a case that the Raps were getting 2 out of the last 3 years of Demar's contract at below market, so don't even think about low-balling on this deal. The key here is that Masai didn't low-ball, whatever that number was that would have insulted DD (e.g. Batum money?).

Yes, DD could have got full max from the Lakers or Philly and probably Dallas, but he was 2nd or 3rd priority for most contending teams, if at all, with most of that only rumored. It would have been interesting to know where he would have gone, had the Raps low-balled him - most likely, grudgingly to the Lakers. All in, the Raps were clearly the best overall situation out there for DeMar, considering: money+winning+role. It is "potentially" a good deal for the Raps, assuming DD can maintain his 2015-16 regular season & improve his playoff performance significantly.

[JawsGT]

Mostly agree with what you're saying, but what I'm also seeing is that as soon as you mention that the money the Raps offered was also a huge factor in his decision (i.e. Raps didn't low-ball $/yr + 5th yr) and what Demar's options could be, you get posters jumping on your post, saying you're being "uncharitable" and/or insulting to DeMar. It's like you can't even talk about the business aspects of this (money, Demar's options, how the Durant situation factored in,....) without pissing off a some people who only want to focus on the feel-good part of the story where an all-star player in his prime chose us because he loved us. It's not a straw-man, as SR pointed out, since I've had a few of those comments directed at my posts

IMO, that's what a discussion forum should be about, to be able to look at any topic from a 360 point-of-view until you've beaten it to death. Not try to cut people off from discussing the unpleasant aspects (like dirty business details) because it takes away from the good vibes of the loyalty narrative.

True, but it goes both ways in this thread. It's very difficult to have a civilized discussion about anything Demar related unfortunately. But I think we can both agree that there were obviously multiple factors that went into his decision. All evidence suggests he wants to be here, and the large contract MU threw at him helped convince him to stay without entertaining other suitors.

[3inthekeon]

I think the loyalty factor argument is all about people really wanting to argue about the loyalty factor.