Everything Derozan

[The Great One]

I think people are overrating how difficult it is to make the HoF in basketball. This site ranks top candidates not in the Hall - top 3 are CWebb, Sydney Moncrieff, and Jack Sikma - great players all but not exactly untouchable MVP-types. And CWebb might get in as early as 2017.

DeMar will have enough Raptors records to earn the distinction of Greatest Raptor Ever over this season and next, a very large feather in his cap with many years left to play and wins rapidly piling up.

I still want to know the definition of "greatest"

How is DeRozan or Lowry greater than Carter?

[Lupe]

Where would you actually find data or evidence that tells you how much energy a player is expending or conserving during a game? And why are Lowry and other player's comments not considered evidence that Biz helped them a lot on D, such as allowing them to be slower on rotations, get beat by their man, etc...?

I don't feel like this is an area where analytics is particularly useful, i.e., measuring player energy & effort.

Analytics isn't useful here unless we start putting a bunch of sensors and patches on players during the game and tracking their VO2, adrenaline and cortisol levels throughout.

This is something I've been saying. Guys on the team are actually coming out and saying that it was easier for them defensively with Biz there and that's being very conveniently ignored. What incentive do the players have to lie about that?

[special1]

Analytics isn't useful here unless we start putting a bunch of sensors and patches on players during the game and tracking their VO2, adrenaline and cortisol levels throughout.

This is something I've been saying. Guys on the team are actually coming out and saying that it was easier for them defensively with Biz there and that's being very conveniently ignored. What incentive do the players have to lie about that?

I agree. I think it was "Open Gym" but both our PGs Lowry and Cojo said that Biz made it easier for them defensively and they knew Biz would be there if they were slow or they got blown by....They said they have to be even quicker than normal because Biz isn't there anymore....

[DanH]

Where would you actually find data or evidence that tells you how much energy a player is expending or conserving during a game? And why are Lowry and other player's comments not considered evidence that Biz helped them a lot on D, such as allowing them to be slower on rotations, get beat by their man, etc...?

I don't feel like this is an area where analytics is particularly useful, i.e., measuring player energy & effort.

Well, say, if Biyombo missed a month, and the excess effort required from Lowry caused him to do too much and hurt himself and never recover from his injuries, and the Raptors got swept in the first round as a result, that would at least be evidence of such a correlation.

I'm fully taking Lowry at his word, that defence is easier with a rim protector behind him. I'm just saying we have no way to determine whether that difference in effort (or, more likely, similar effort and different results) is remotely the same as the difference in effort required as the primary offensive option against a defence focused on you versus playing beside the player who is said focus.

We actually HAVE an example of Lowry doing too much offensively and falling apart. We have no such example demonstrating the importance of a rim protector. That's all I'm saying.

[blackjitsu]

I still want to know the definition of "greatest"

How is DeRozan or Lowry greater than Carter?

Carter was a better player/athlete,
but DD and Lowry have won more -- Atlantic Conference titles, reached the ECF, best team records in history...

Team culture
Carter quit on the team
Needed guys like Oak to push him.

Demar busted his butt for far worse teams than Carter had.
The relationship that DD and Lowry have makes guys like Durrant jealous...
They create an atmosphere others follow.

Impact

Carter is the reason basketball is where it is at in Toronto: from outdoor courts, to adult leagues

We have no clue if DD/Lowry are having that sort of effect on the city. I guess Jurassic Park is our closest indicator for now.


Conclusion:
Best player? Carter

Involved in the most successful period of Raps ball -- DD and Lowry

Team Culture -- DD and Lowry

City culture/impact -- Carter (for now)

By this or next season DD will lead in games played, points, and a few other categories as well.

[CNinja26]

I think people are overrating how difficult it is to make the HoF in basketball. This site ranks top candidates not in the Hall - top 3 are CWebb, Sydney Moncrieff, and Jack Sikma - great players all but not exactly untouchable MVP-types. And CWebb might get in as early as 2017.

DeMar will have enough Raptors records to earn the distinction of Greatest Raptor Ever over this season and next, a very large feather in his cap with many years left to play and wins rapidly piling up.

CWebb was a superstar! He was probably in contention for an MVP or two back in the early 2000's. I can't speak for the other guys - I never saw them play.

And being the greatest Raptor ever is not a selling point for a franchise with very limited success and superstars who only spent a few years in their prime here. I mean, it will be a great accomplishment when he gets there, and I think he is the greatest Raptor ever, up there with Lowry, for the success they have brought to the franchise, but I don't think that's enough.

[Lupe]

Well, say, if Biyombo missed a month, and the excess effort required from Lowry caused him to do too much and hurt himself and never recover from his injuries, and the Raptors got swept in the first round as a result, that would at least be evidence of such a correlation.

I'm fully taking Lowry at his word, that defence is easier with a rim protector behind him. I'm just saying we have no way to determine whether that difference in effort (or, more likely, similar effort and different results) is remotely the same as the difference in effort required as the primary offensive option against a defence focused on you versus playing beside the player who is said focus.

We actually HAVE an example of Lowry doing too much offensively and falling apart. We have no such example demonstrating the importance of a rim protector. That's all I'm saying.

We have no evidence that those things have a causal relationship though. Especially given that 2 seasons prior he played virtually the same minutes per game, did not get injured and performed at a high level in the playoffs.

[Mess]

DeMar's not even 30 yet. When Vince was the same age as DeMar is now he had yet to pout his way out of Toronto.

Too soon, Executus.

[DanH]

We have no evidence that those things have a causal relationship though. Especially given that 2 seasons prior he played virtually the same minutes per game, did not get injured and performed at a high level in the playoffs.

Has anyone in this conversation brought up minutes per game? The entire discussion is about having to carry more offence. Lowry carried a 30% usage while DD was out - the sort of huge offensive load a player like DD has proven able to handle, and few other players have.

[Chr1s1anL]

P.S.

Without Demar the Raptors would be terrible. Lowry would blow a gasket before Christmas.

I get the efforts to praise one over the other but sometimes you can just appreciate both because we need them both!

They didn't accomplish anything individually until they played TOGETHER. I think even they realize this... which explains why they are like brothers.

Well said

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[SkywalkerAC]

I still want to know the definition of "greatest"

How is DeRozan or Lowry greater than Carter?

I pretty much spelled out my definition in my post - an aggregation of longevity-centric raptor-records: points, games played, regular season wins, playoff wins, etc.

[Chr1s1anL]

I still want to know the definition of "greatest"

How is DeRozan or Lowry greater than Carter?

Because they actually won and never quit on thier teams.

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[Chr1s1anL]

Well, say, if Biyombo missed a month, and the excess effort required from Lowry caused him to do too much and hurt himself and never recover from his injuries, and the Raptors got swept in the first round as a result, that would at least be evidence of such a correlation.

I'm fully taking Lowry at his word, that defence is easier with a rim protector behind him. I'm just saying we have no way to determine whether that difference in effort (or, more likely, similar effort and different results) is remotely the same as the difference in effort required as the primary offensive option against a defence focused on you versus playing beside the player who is said focus.

We actually HAVE an example of Lowry doing too much offensively and falling apart. We have no such example demonstrating the importance of a rim protector. That's all I'm saying.

The reason K Low likes having a rim protectors is cause he is always gabbling for steals. Most of the time he wins those gambles but, if he doesn't he has elite support behind him. It just allows perimeter players to play a little bit looser. Lowry is at his best when he is flying all over the place. Biz a allowed him to do that more last year. He can't do that as much this year.

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[jimmie]

Well, say, if Biyombo missed a month, and the excess effort required from Lowry caused him to do too much and hurt himself and never recover from his injuries, and the Raptors got swept in the first round as a result, that would at least be evidence of such a correlation.

I'm fully taking Lowry at his word, that defence is easier with a rim protector behind him. I'm just saying we have no way to determine whether that difference in effort (or, more likely, similar effort and different results) is remotely the same as the difference in effort required as the primary offensive option against a defence focused on you versus playing beside the player who is said focus.

We actually HAVE an example of Lowry doing too much offensively and falling apart. We have no such example demonstrating the importance of a rim protector. That's all I'm saying.

You know that what people involved in the situation say is also "evidence", right? You just weight it differently, I guess.

I guess what I mean is, if the guys most affected, and arguably with a lot more insight than can be gained by numbers alone, think they're missing Biz in a big way, that should count for more than just "speculation".

[The Great One]

Because they actually won and never quit on thier teams.

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