Everything Derozan

[DanH]

I guess i'm the one who has to bring context to the party....

If you guys watch the games you'd notice the rotations are always the same...

Lowry exits with 3-5 mins to go in the first and 3rd Quarters. Demar plays the whole 1st and 3rd Quarters.

Could it be that fatigue may be affecting those numbers?? Lowry comes back in fresh in the 2nd and 4th Quarters when he's playing with the bench units.... Demar is finishing his shift with the bench units......

Also, maybe it takes the bench guys a few minutes to get into the groove of the games and by the time the 2nd and 4th Quarters start, they are more comfortable.....Who knows.

Lowry is amazing.....not trying to take anything away from his usual performances.

Just wanted to add some context to those numbers.

Wouldn't Lowry then be fatigued in the 4th Q's, which he plays basically the entire Q right at the end of the game when players are the most tired? Lowry plays more minutes than DD does, I think if anything the fatigue argument applies more to him.

I guess you could make the bench unit rhythm argument. I don't think it holds though - DD had a very similar on-off court split last year, and his primary bench unit was basically just as effective (and moreso defensively) as Lowry's last season.

[special1]

Wouldn't Lowry then be fatigued in the 4th Q's, which he plays basically the entire Q right at the end of the game when players are the most tired? Lowry plays more minutes than DD does, I think if anything the fatigue argument applies more to him.

I guess you could make the bench unit rhythm argument. I don't think it holds though - DD had a very similar on-off court split last year, and his primary bench unit was basically just as effective (and moreso defensively) as Lowry's last season.

Yes, Lowry is fatigued in the 4th Quarters for sure.....However, he's finishing most of the time with starters (JV and Demar comes back in half way through the 4th) and Cojo takes up the challenge of guarding the tougher offensive player most of the time.

Lowry is a mature and very smart player. He knows when to pull back and when to go full out and when he's with the starters he's mostly trying to get Demar, JV and the others their touches before its Lowry time to close out the games/quarters. He takes and makes open 3's and drives to the basket at opportune times.

Demar's game is usually getting to the free throw line and getting inside the paint and seems to work much harder for his shots. He's very persistent at doing these things and it takes a lot of energy to do these things consistently.

Rhythm argument makes a lot of sense to me (offensively)....that's the argument that others have made for years.....How the bench players can't get into Rythym because they don't get consistent touches......well if they come in cold, that affects them as well no?

[DanH]

Yes, Lowry is fatigued in the 4th Quarters for sure.....However, he's finishing most of the time with starters (JV and Demar comes back in half way through the 4th) and Cojo takes up the challenge of guarding the tougher offensive player most of the time.

Lowry is a mature and very smart player. He knows when to pull back and when to go full out and when he's with the starters he's mostly trying to get Demar, JV and the others their touches before its Lowry time to close out the games/quarters. He takes and makes open 3's and drives to the basket at opportune times.

Demar's game is usually getting to the free throw line and getting inside the paint and seems to work much harder for his shots. He's very persistent at doing these things and it takes a lot of energy to do these things consistently.

Rhythm argument makes a lot of sense to me (offensively)....that's the argument that others have made for years.....How the bench players can't get into Rythym because they don't get consistent touches......well if they come in cold, that affects them as well no?

My point is, the rhythm argument should apply last year, too, right? And yet the primary bench unit with DeRozan last season was very, very good, in the exact same usage (end of 1st and 3rd Q's) - and DeRozan STILL posted similarly unimpressive on-off numbers compared to Lowry.

[special1]

My point is, the rhythm argument should apply last year, too, right? And yet the primary bench unit with DeRozan last season was very, very good, in the exact same usage (end of 1st and 3rd Q's) - and DeRozan STILL posted similarly unimpressive on-off numbers compared to Lowry.

I STILL don't see how this changes my original argument of fatigue at the end of the 1st and 3rd Q's with just the bench (no JV and no Lowry).....Lowry's fatigue comes in the 2nd and 4th Quarters with the starters (JV and Demar)........Sorry, i'm just going with what i see on a nightly basis. I'll leave the stats comparisons to you.

[DanH]

I STILL don't see how this changes my original argument of fatigue at the end of the 1st and 3rd Q's with just the bench (no JV and no Lowry).....Lowry's fatigue comes in the 2nd and 3rd Quarters with (JV and Demar)........Sorry, i'm just going with what i see on a nightly basis. I'll leave the stats comparisons to you.

It doesn't change the fatigue argument, it changes the rhythm argument.

The fatigue argument may have some merit - in which case I think Casey should fix the problem - make an earlier substitution for one of the all stars and make a second sub before the end of the Q. So give DD a break from the 6 minute mark to the 9 minute mark (and leave Lowry and the starters plus, say, Norman Powell on the court) then bring him in with the bench unit at that point. Can't be running guys out for full Q's if that's the result.

[special1]

It doesn't change the fatigue argument, it changes the rhythm argument.

The fatigue argument may have some merit - in which case I think Casey should fix the problem - make an earlier substitution for one of the all stars and make a second sub before the end of the Q. So give DD a break from the 6 minute mark to the 9 minute mark (and leave Lowry and the starters plus, say, Norman Powell on the court) then bring him in with the bench unit at that point. Can't be running guys out for full Q's if that's the result.

I guess my point is that there are factors affecting these numbers and they need to be mentioned. Fatigue is actually a sensible argument. Maybe you guys should try playing for 12 minutes straight in a NBA game in the 1st and 3rd Quarters and see how it affects your performance.

Now, if Demar was always playing fresh with the bench unit .....then i could understand the definitive statements some were making. The truth is Lowry without Demar would likely be a disaster waiting to happen as well (which admittedly, i've seen you argue many times, while others seem to disregard it).

[golden]

This has been my argument for DeRozan's value. Lowry undeniably is the driver of the team's success - everything points to it. DeRozan is a volume scorer (and a very good one) and a decent distributor for a wing, and little else, while Lowry is the engine of the entire team. But Lowry has proven he can't survive in the offence if he has to take on that scoring load. And when you have a guy like Lowry, you do whatever it takes to make him survive, and your team will be really good. DeRozan allows Lowry to do that - his defence is certainly lacklustre, but his improving offensive game is not only allowing him to carry more and more of that offensive load, but to do so with above average efficiency, which means the team's offence (which was already good due to the high efficiency of our bigs and shooters) skyrockets.

At this point it's kind of a given that Lowry is the superstar on this team - but DeRozan's value is higher than ever with Lowry getting further up there in years. It was my entire argument for why the team should give DeRozan the max (give or take) to keep him around.

You can use this exact same argument to bring back Bismack or trade for Noel. I.E. They directly help Lowry conserve energy on D, paraphrasing Lowry's own words.

[DanH]

You can use this exact same argument to bring back Bismack or trade for Noel. I.E. They directly help Lowry conserve energy on D, paraphrasing Lowry's own words.

You could. I don't think we have the same evidence of that actually helping that much, like we do with the example from 2014-15 of when DD went down and Lowry basically died on the court and never recovered from the half-dozen injuries he racked up. But you could, indeed.

[S.R.]

I dream that one day Lowry and DD will shoot like this in the playoffs, too. Plz. Plz. That would be so much more fun. I think I lost hair and got some greys last spring...

[rocwell]

[Lupe]

You can use this exact same argument to bring back Bismack or trade for Noel. I.E. They directly help Lowry conserve energy on D, paraphrasing Lowry's own words.

Exactly. Yes our players should put in a better shift in defensively but what's wrong with making it easier on guys? Less energy expended, better defensive performance, lower fatigue.

Draymond Green does that type of stuff for the other Warriors players.

[CNinja26]

I don't think Demar makes the HOF without breaking out as a superstar. Provided he keeps scoring, keeps getting better, and the Raptors continue with decent playoff success, he could put up the numbers and get a few more accolades under his belt (All NBA, All star, etc.). But he needs the recognition too. If you look at the MVP ladder at NBA.com, he wasn't even in the Top 10 this week - a guy who is/was 3rd in scoring on a Top 5/6 team in the league. He needs to be in these types of conversations consistently as a start. Or win an NBA Championship or two.

[SkywalkerAC]

I don't think Demar makes the HOF without breaking out as a superstar. Provided he keeps scoring, keeps getting better, and the Raptors continue with decent playoff success, he could put up the numbers and get a few more accolades under his belt (All NBA, All star, etc.). But he needs the recognition too. If you look at the MVP ladder at NBA.com, he wasn't even in the Top 10 this week - a guy who is/was 3rd in scoring on a Top 5/6 team in the league. He needs to be in these types of conversations consistently as a start. Or win an NBA Championship or two.

I think people are overrating how difficult it is to make the HoF in basketball. This site ranks top candidates not in the Hall - top 3 are CWebb, Sydney Moncrieff, and Jack Sikma - great players all but not exactly untouchable MVP-types. And CWebb might get in as early as 2017.

DeMar will have enough Raptors records to earn the distinction of Greatest Raptor Ever over this season and next, a very large feather in his cap with many years left to play and wins rapidly piling up.

[A.I]

I don't think Demar makes the HOF without breaking out as a superstar. Provided he keeps scoring, keeps getting better, and the Raptors continue with decent playoff success, he could put up the numbers and get a few more accolades under his belt (All NBA, All star, etc.). But he needs the recognition too. If you look at the MVP ladder at NBA.com, he wasn't even in the Top 10 this week - a guy who is/was 3rd in scoring on a Top 5/6 team in the league. He needs to be in these types of conversations consistently as a start. Or win an NBA Championship or two.

Honestly if the team does well for the next several years and Derozan can consistently play well in the Playoffs while putting up 25+ PPG, getting some more accolades, I think he'll get in. Reggie Miller only played in 5 all star games, but he was a great consistent scorer, especially in the Playoffs. Although I guess the main thing that separates him is that he was the greatest shooter of all time.

There is also Mitch Richmond, who probably compares more to Derozan, good scorer, only averaged above 25 PPG once, played in 6 All star games, but didn't do much else. He did win a championship, but he was 36 and only played 2 mins per game in the Playoffs.

[golden]

You could. I don't think we have the same evidence of that actually helping that much, like we do with the example from 2014-15 of when DD went down and Lowry basically died on the court and never recovered from the half-dozen injuries he racked up. But you could, indeed.

Where would you actually find data or evidence that tells you how much energy a player is expending or conserving during a game? And why are Lowry and other player's comments not considered evidence that Biz helped them a lot on D, such as allowing them to be slower on rotations, get beat by their man, etc...?

I don't feel like this is an area where analytics is particularly useful, i.e., measuring player energy & effort.