Everything Derozan

[Axel]

Which has next to zero value relative to DeRozan/Batum I'm sorry.

23 is a throw in. I know Masai is good at drafting but late 1st round picks don't have high trade value which is why we'd be getting fleeced by Portland in that trade.

I actually like Vonleh a lot as a prospect, but you've gotta look at market value here. He was the 9th overall pick and didn't show anything last year (not that he was given a chance to, but still). His value isn't super high, in fact it's probably lower than the 9th pick in this draft. Batum also has pretty low value right now (at least relative to what it might've been a year or so ago) coming off a bad season in which he was actually less efficient than DeRozan despite being a 4th option on offense.

Need to get more back.

I think you are over-valuing DD.

Is the team in a better place with the return package vs DD? I say it's a clear yes. Plus you could still shop Henderson if you want to really go youth.

[Axel]

Nicely Said ....

lol, yeah, cause nothing says realistic trade better than "fleecing the other team".

[JWash]

Is the drop off from DD to Henderson not worth the potential of Noah Vonleh (ranked 2nd best PF last year by DraftNet and a total score of 95 - 7th on their big board) plus the 23rd pick (where you could potentially land 2 of RHJ, Looney, Oubre, Anderson, Hunter, Wright); while keeping 20th.

I'd do that deal every time.

Maybe? My point is DeRozan's value is definitely a lot higher than Batum's so we need to be getting more back in a trade. The 23rd pick doesn't do that for me, as a pick that low is basically a throw-in to a trade. In the same sense that we wouldn't be able to acquire anyone of worth with the 20th pick.

I'm thinking in terms of market here and I think you and mcHAPPY are just looking purely at what you're getting in return. I wouldn't trade DeRozan for Batum if you paid me to, so it doesn't make much sense to trade him for what was believed to be equivalent to Batum's worth in my mind. Need to shop for better.

This is kind of a moot point though because Portland is clearly rebuilding and would not do that trade anyway considering Nic and DD are the same age.

[Axel]

Maybe? My point is DeRozan's value is definitely a lot higher than Batum's so we need to be getting more back in a trade. The 23rd pick doesn't do that for me, as a pick that low is basically a throw-in to a trade. In the same sense that we wouldn't be able to acquire anyone of worth with the 20th pick.

I'm thinking in terms of market here and I think you and mcHAPPY are just looking purely at what you're getting in return. I wouldn't trade DeRozan for Batum if you paid me to, so it doesn't make much sense to trade him for what was believed to be equivalent to Batum's worth in my mind. Need to shop for better.

This is kind of a moot point though because Portland is clearly rebuilding and would not do that trade anyway considering Nic and DD are the same age.

It's definitely a moot point, cause Portland isn't moving them.

So here's a question though, are you framing your value of return on DD based on what you originally would have wanted to get or what Batum was traded for?

Personally, I would have made that deal with Charlotte for DD, but would really have pushed for 9th or some additional picks. That's why, even with the Batum deal being completed, I take the return on DD of Vonleh, Henderson and 23.

I also don't think first round draft picks are considered "throw ins" by any franchise outside of New York city.

[JWash]

lol, yeah, cause nothing says realistic trade better than "fleecing the other team".

Yes we need to win the trade. Maybe fleecing is a stretch, but I want to be sure that what we're getting back is the most we possibly can get back, and that it will provide significantly better long-term impact than DeRozan.

I'm talking about a deal like what Philly made basically getting two lottery picks (and the 1st one was the best player in the class if not for his injuries, Noel). Saric also rated very highly in his draft and only fell to 11 because of the 2+ years overseas likelihood.

I don't see Masai making a trade like DD for Vonleh+Henderson+23, just looking at his track record it doesn't make much sense. There's no way he sits down with Portland and lets them tell him that Batum and DD have the same trade value league-wide minus a late 1st round pick. Sorry.

[JWash]

It's definitely a moot point, cause Portland isn't moving them.

So here's a question though, are you framing your value of return on DD based on what you originally would have wanted to get or what Batum was traded for?

Personally, I would have made that deal with Charlotte for DD, but would really have pushed for 9th or some additional picks. That's why, even with the Batum deal being completed, I take the return on DD of Vonleh, Henderson and 23.

I also don't think first round draft picks are considered "throw ins" by any franchise outside of New York city.

Would not make that deal with Charlotte unless we also got their pick in this draft. EDIT: Even then I'd still wait and look for something better that gives me more of a sure chance of getting a player better than DeRozan long-term. Let's not forget that DeRozan ranks anywhere from 4-6 in his class and the guys ahead of him are all superstars (harden, Griffin, Curry). 2009 wasn't exactly a weak class either.

[JWash]

I'm not against trading anyone on our team but I really, really hate losing trades, something which our franchise has done a lot of. You don't trade your highest or 2nd highest value asset for guys that are expendable/don't even play on another team.

[Axel]

I'm not against trading anyone on our team but I really, really hate losing trades, something which our franchise has done a lot of. You don't trade your highest or 2nd highest value asset for guys that are expendable/don't even play on another team.

Judging win/loss on the day of a deal that includes picks is futile. Also don't think DD is the highest or 2nd highest asset; JV and Lowry are.

[Axel]

Yes we need to win the trade. Maybe fleecing is a stretch, but I want to be sure that what we're getting back is the most we possibly can get back, and that it will provide significantly better long-term impact than DeRozan.

I'm talking about a deal like what Philly made basically getting two lottery picks (and the 1st one was the best player in the class if not for his injuries, Noel). Saric also rated very highly in his draft and only fell to 11 because of the 2+ years overseas likelihood.

I don't see Masai making a trade like DD for Vonleh+Henderson+23, just looking at his track record it doesn't make much sense. There's no way he sits down with Portland and lets them tell him that Batum and DD have the same trade value league-wide minus a late 1st round pick. Sorry.

Yet the troll thinks "fleecing" is a nice word choice. That's why I responded to his stupid comment rather than yours, which I took with the appropriate grain of salt.

[JWash]

Judging win/loss on the day of a deal that includes picks is futile. Also don't think DD is the highest or 2nd highest asset; JV and Lowry are.

That's your opinion, that's fine.

Just want people to remember that if we're trading DeRozan it's to get better long-term not just to get something back for him that might be solid value.

[Axel]

That's your opinion, that's fine.

Just want people to remember that if we're trading DeRozan it's to get better long-term not just to get something back for him that might be solid value.

Long term, I think Vonleh is better than DD. Vonleh projects to be a legit stretch 4 who can rebound. That is significantly better than DD. Vonleh was an elite college rebounder, with 7'4 wingspan (2nd best in his draft class) and a smooth shooting stroke.

Charlotte didn't play him, but he produced when they did. MJ's impatience works against him (again).

Anything after that is gravy.

[planetmars]

That's your opinion, that's fine.

Just want people to remember that if we're trading DeRozan it's to get better long-term not just to get something back for him that might be solid value.

Do you believe DeMar will be back with Toronto next season and at a reasonable value? His value is at its highest now. Nobody will give anything of value at the deadline for an expiring.. and after the season is over, DD's value could be zero.

[JWash]

Yet the troll thinks "fleecing" is a nice word choice. That's why I responded to his stupid comment rather than yours, which I took with the appropriate grain of salt.

Tbh I used "fleecing" in more of an angry manner regarding Raptors trades in general. It seems like we got "fleeced" in every trade that occurred prior to Ujiri getting here so I'd like to get a lot of that back against other teams. The Bargnani trade was a good start but I'd like to see more of that happening.

Winning trades by wide margins repeatedly is a good way to build a strong team if you're not doing it via a full-on rebuild or free agency. Houston is a pretty good example of a team that has basically won every deal they've made since Morey was in office. Golden State is another example. We need to be doing that.

[Axel]

Tbh I used "fleecing" in more of an angry manner regarding Raptors trades in general. It seems like we got "fleeced" in every trade that occurred prior to Ujiri getting here so I'd like to get a lot of that back against other teams. The Bargnani trade was a good start but I'd like to see more of that happening.

Winning trades by wide margins repeatedly is a good way to build a strong team if you're not doing it via a full-on rebuild or free agency. Houston is a pretty good example of a team that has basically won every deal they've made since Morey was in office. Golden State is another example. We need to be doing that.

I agree that we need to "win" trades (fairly obvious for any fan), but I think realistic expectation on return is more important than swinging for the fences. Missing out on a trade because you were too "greedy" is a loss that the fans won't see.

[planetmars]

BC was actually pretty good at trades (Davis+Jose's expiring for Gay was not a fleece, neither was Amir/Weems for Ukic/Delfino.

Last fleece job was under Babcock in my opinion... and he was here more than 10 years ago.