Everything Derozan

[special1]

You're talking about DD's defence.

Isn't this a bit like discussing how good a player Tyler Bozak is? He's been a poor +/- player every year as a Leaf, while scoring nearly 50 points in three out of the last four seasons. But he's being asked to do too much as a number one center on a poor team. If the Leafs get a "true" number 1 center, his "usage" drops, the team improves, and so on.

We're hoping that the addition of Carroll, CoJo, Wright and Powell will put PG's and SG's into their natural roles, while easing their defensive assignments and improving the team (while allowing starters to rest more). DD and KL being healthy will help. KL's apparent fitness and DD's penchant for self-improvement (he's still only 25) and character should also help.

I don't think any more stat-based discussions are going to convince anyone who believes DD is "below average" of anything. I'm hoping that time will prove those those of us who see room for improvement right.

Is there anyone who doesn't see room for improvement? Is there anyone who is not hoping it will manifest, one might ask?

^This guy right here gets it.^




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[Snooch]

You're talking about DD's defence.

Isn't this a bit like discussing how good a player Tyler Bozak is? He's been a poor +/- player every year as a Leaf, while scoringed nearly 50 points three out of the last four seasons. But he's being asked to do too much as a number one center on a poor team. If the Leafs get a "true" number 1 center, his "usage" drops, the team improves, and so on.

We're hoping that the addition of Carroll, CoJo, Wright and Powell will, put PG's and SG's into their natural roles, allow for seom rest, while easing their defensive assignments and improving the team. DD and KL being healthy will help. KL's apparent fitness and DD's penchant for self-improvement (he's still only 25) and character should also help.

I don't think any more stat-based discussions are going to convince anyone who believes DD is "below average" are going to "move the needle". I'm hoping that time will prove those those of us who see room for improvement right.

Is there anyone who doesn't see room for improvement? Anyone who is not hoping it will manifest, one might ask?

Demar hasnt, over the course of his entire career, shown that he can be an above average defender.

So Logically thinking, the additions of Carol, and Cujo will do nothing make that better. The team may improve defensively, but not Demar. Demar never guarded the best wing player before, so why would adding Carrol make a difference on that side of it?

Can the team improve, sure I cannot see how it could possibly get worse.

[Snooch]

Using dRTG to determine how good a player is defensively, even among his teammates is unwise and inaccurate. That would tell you that Carlos Boozer was the 2nd best defender on the 2013-14 Bulls (when they were an elite defensive team and not slightly above average like last year), and Jimmy Butler was just ok.

Defensive rating is more than fine, it is a measurement of points allowed by a particular player per 100 possession.

It is reliant on team play, so comparing Drating against his fellow teammates works just fine.

Comparing Demars defense against Klay Thompsons could be a bit off due to GS being a better defensive team overall than the Raps.

[yabadabayolo]

yes that list would, but any allstar caliber player is going to take on that challenge if they had the physical gifts demar has, in end of game situations.

And if he was the great defender he would do it as well throughout the game.

And in terms of being average by teams standards, I guess you are right there. He is an average defender on a bad defensive team. put him on a good defensive team and that average becomes bad.

Only players that are the number one option on the team AND guard the other teams best wings are george and butler. That's about it.

And last year during games against big wing players, it was derozan who guarded them, not ross. With demare Carole, he won't even have to do that.

[Snooch]

Agreed for the most part, I think it depends who you ask him to play individual defense on... he does pretty well on spot-up shooters (which like 80% of starting SGs are) as much as people rib him for his close-outs. It's the fast guys that can really break you down that he struggles with at times because his lateral quickness isn't great. (This is actually kind of why he did decently on LBJ because LBJ actually isn't that fast side to side).

And your last part is bang on, that's what I envision for DeRozan when we hopefully get a legit #1 option here. A guy who can still score but focuses more on being efficient on that end with a lightened load, while doing a better job defensively, on the glass and as a playmaker.

I know people think DD wouldn't touch the ball enough to be useful if he was a 2nd option, but I don't buy that. There are plenty of examples of 2nd option guards/wings who have usage that is actually about equivalent to DeMar's right now (28%). Klay Thompson was at 28%, Kyrie 26%, Monta Ellis 28%, even Beal who was kind of 2nd option by committee on WAS was at 23%.

Don't see how DD wouldn't get enough touches and ~25% usage if (please God) Durant were to come here for example.

In theory Demar as a second option works, but what you are missing is that a guy like Irving, Beal, Thompson have skillsets that allow them to excel in that secondary roll.

Thompson has elite shooting
Beal has very good shooting
Ellis and Irving have an eleite ability to iso, break a defender down, and playmake....and they are better shooters than Demar as well.

[Snooch]

He is not a below average defender
The beginning of the year we were 9th on defence, then when demar got injured the worst in the league

That has more to do with his leverl of Replacement than his skill as a defender.

He plays the team concept well and rarely gets blown by or beat in isolation
It would be way to hard to put maximum effort on that end nightly but we've seen him step up guarding guys like Lebron and harden when needed

The bolded is fiction through and through.

[Snooch]

Only players that are the number one option on the team AND guard the other teams best wings are george and butler. That's about it.

And last year during games against big wing players, it was derozan who guarded them, not ross. With demare Carole, he won't even have to do that.

That wasnt very often.

And again, I was talking about crunch time, end of game stuff, not entire game.

[thead]

I thought I settled this.

[Snooch]

I thought I settled this.

It will never be settled



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[OldSkoolCool]

I think DD is a bad wing defender....

If we want to make the ECF then both our wings need to be able to defend at a pretty high level. W.R.T. that, DD is a bad defender.

I don't really care about comparing to the league because the league isn't competing for a championship. 4-6 teams are, and that's where we should focusing our evaluations...If we want to improve as a franchise we need to raise the bar

[JWash]

I think DD is a bad wing defender....

If we want to make the ECF then both our wings need to be able to defend at a pretty high level. W.R.T. that, DD is a bad defender.

I don't really care about comparing to the league because the league isn't competing for a championship. 4-6 teams are, and that's where we should focusing our evaluations...If we want to improve as a franchise we need to raise the bar

DeRozan is about on par with both Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes defensively, maybe a touch worse than Klay and as good as HB. They just both played and started in the NBA finals and DD brings more offensively than the Black Falcon (I love that nickname btw lol) does.

[Mindlessness]

DeRozan is about on par with both Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes defensively, maybe a touch worse than Klay and as good as HB. They just both played and started in the NBA finals and DD brings more offensively than the Black Falcon (I love that nickname btw lol) does.

Maybe he's around as good as Thompson defensively, but I can't see Barnes. I've always thought of Barnes as at least slightly above-average defensively, if not better. Dude's just pretty good on defense to me.

Anyways, I agree with thead. DD's a slightly below average individual defender, and is OK in team concepts.

[JWash]

Maybe he's around as good as Thompson defensively, but I can't see Barnes. I've always thought of Barnes as at least slightly above-average defensively, if not better. Dude's just pretty good on defense to me.

Anyways, I agree with thead. DD's a slightly below average individual defender, and is OK in team concepts.

Idk I kinda thought KT was better than Barnes defensively...

[OldSkoolCool]

DeRozan is about on par with both Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes defensively, maybe a touch worse than Klay and as good as HB. They just both played and started in the NBA finals and DD brings more offensively than the Black Falcon (I love that nickname btw lol) does.

DD is no where near as good as Barnes or Thompson. DD misses a lot on defense...and can't defend anyone more than 1-2 possessions per week

*This is based solely on my eye test.

[JWash]

DD is no where near as good as Barnes or Thompson. DD misses a lot on defense...and can't defend anyone more than 1-2 possessions per week

*This is based solely on my eye test.

I have a question for you though.

You watch all 82 Raps games I guess or damn close right? And probably the whole game?

Do you watch all 82 Warriors games?