Everything Derozan

[JWash]

Kinda jumping around topics a bit here, but I wanted to add something about DeMar playing as a #2 to a legit star.

You take the ball out of his hands a bit more that means more corner 3s and less from above the break. It's pretty difficult for guys who are #1 options to shoot a lot of corner 3s, because you don't really start an isolation play from the corner of the arc. Would lead to him upping that 3P% and being more efficient imo if he was taking ~80% of his 3s from there like a guy like Bruce Bowen. He's capable of shooting 40% from the corner.

[Abbas]

Why do people think derozan is a bad defender

one on one he's average
team defense he's great

that = above average defender

[Snooch]

DeRozan is about on par with both Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes defensively, maybe a touch worse than Klay and as good as HB. They just both played and started in the NBA finals and DD brings more offensively than the Black Falcon (I love that nickname btw lol) does.

Dd is not as good as hb. Period.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk

[Chr1s1anL]

Kinda jumping around topics a bit here, but I wanted to add something about DeMar playing as a #2 to a legit star.

You take the ball out of his hands a bit more that means more corner 3s and less from above the break. It's pretty difficult for guys who are #1 options to shoot a lot of corner 3s, because you don't really start an isolation play from the corner of the arc. Would lead to him upping that 3P% and being more efficient imo if he was taking ~80% of his 3s from there like a guy like Bruce Bowen. He's capable of shooting 40% from the corner.

You make a very valid point. Shot .389 from 3 on 3.9 attempts while playing next to Rudy two year ago.

[Chr1s1anL]

Why do people think derozan is a bad defender

one on one he's average
team defense he's great

that = above average defender

A lot of posters here just want DD to fail just so they can say they were right. If you actually watched the games this year you know DD is a plus defender average at worse. They'll see this upcoming season though.

#ProveEm

[KHD]

A lot of posters here just want DD to fail just so they can say they were right. If you actually watched the games this year you know DD is a plus defender average at worse. They'll see this upcoming season though.

#ProveEm

the hits keep coming.

[JWash]

I might start being annoying and adding #ProveEm to all my DeRozan related posts, because the "other side" is becoming equally agitating. Most people who like DeRozan have conceded that he isn't efficient (if you haven't, something is wrong with you lol). But the people in the other camp won't yield anything for the guy.

- He's still below average defensively
- He can't do anything without the ball in his hands
- He's not an effective passer, and he's selfish
- He can't shoot the ball, and he'll never figure out how to shoot more corner 3s as opposed to above the break
- He has too big of an ego to accept a smaller role

Like what? I hate to keep going back to the Team USA well but it is a very valid point. Is the coaching staff along with Jerry Colangelo mentally challenged? Why would they put a player who checks all the above boxes on the team? Why even send him an invite?

#ProveEm

[JWash]

I wish this was soccer and we could loan DeRozan to the Clippers for half a season so people can see how well he would play with legit star(s) ahead of him.

[Mindlessness]

I'm officially on a cut-back-all-posting-on-the-DeRozan-and-Valanciunas-threads diet. Is that a diet? I don't think that's a diet.

#Whatever

[white men can't jump]

I wish this was soccer and we could loan DeRozan to the Clippers for half a season so people can see how well he would play with legit star(s) ahead of him.

I think he could play better, so to speak, if we just ran a more balanced offence. He's not a go-to scorer. And coach can't let that be his role.

[raptors999]

Kinda jumping around topics a bit here, but I wanted to add something about DeMar playing as a #2 to a legit star.

You take the ball out of his hands a bit more that means more corner 3s and less from above the break. It's pretty difficult for guys who are #1 options to shoot a lot of corner 3s, because you don't really start an isolation play from the corner of the arc. Would lead to him upping that 3P% and being more efficient imo if he was taking ~80% of his 3s from there like a guy like Bruce Bowen. He's capable of shooting 40% from the corner.

Tell Bruno he dribbles into the corner

[DanH]

You're talking about DD's defence.

Isn't this a bit like discussing how good a player Tyler Bozak is? He's been a poor +/- player every year as a Leaf, while scoring nearly 50 points in three out of the last four seasons. But he's being asked to do too much as a number one center on a poor team. If the Leafs get a "true" number 1 center, his "usage" drops, the team improves, and so on.

We're hoping that the addition of Carroll, CoJo, Wright and Powell will put PG's and SG's into their natural roles, while easing their defensive assignments and improving the team (while allowing starters to rest more). DD and KL being healthy will help. KL's apparent fitness and DD's penchant for self-improvement (he's still only 25) and character should also help.

I don't think any more stat-based discussions are going to convince anyone who believes DD is "below average" of anything. I'm hoping that time will prove those those of us who see room for improvement right.

Is there anyone who doesn't see room for improvement? Is there anyone who is not hoping it will manifest, one might ask?

I just want to jump in and say that if you are using plus-minus to evaluate a hockey player, you are doing it wrong.

And the Bozak point is a good one, and relates directly to this discussion. Ultimately, if people are going to argue that DeRozan is well suited to a second or third option role, then he will need to be paid accordingly - ie not the max, or particularly close to it. If the Raptors are going to keep DeRozan, it will be with a contract that will dictate his being first option, or at the very least infringe heavily on the flexibility needed to add a true first option.

The issue with Bozak is he is paid as a bottom-tier first line C, or a high end 2nd line C. Many believe he is not worthy of either post, so he should be removed from the team so as to free up that money for players who can actually play on the top 2 lines.

[Snooch]

I might start being annoying and adding #ProveEm to all my DeRozan related posts, because the "other side" is becoming equally agitating. Most people who like DeRozan have conceded that he isn't efficient (if you haven't, something is wrong with you lol). But the people in the other camp won't yield anything for the guy.

- He's still below average defensively
- He can't do anything without the ball in his hands
- He's not an effective passer, and he's selfish
- He can't shoot the ball, and he'll never figure out how to shoot more corner 3s as opposed to above the break
- He has too big of an ego to accept a smaller role

Like what? I hate to keep going back to the Team USA well but it is a very valid point. Is the coaching staff along with Jerry Colangelo mentally challenged? Why would they put a player who checks all the above boxes on the team? Why even send him an invite?

#ProveEm

the only thing correct about this entire post is the criticism of demar, you of course are exagerating any point made to try and make it sound outlandish so that it fits in with fans insistance on claiming that nothing is wrong, nothing is bad, all is great.

He is below average defensively, If every single advanced metric available as well as impartial eyes of opposing fans, commentators, coaches and media agrees with that but you want to believe that it isnt true then good on ya. Believe in santa too?

no one said he couldnt do anything with the ball in his hands, just said that he isnt very good at it. he is far from elite, and honestly i dont know if i would call him average, he just learned a spin dribble last season...6 years in the league before he couold break out a spin move without loosing the handle!

He isnt an effective passer, again this has been pointed out many times, demar generally passes when he gets himself into trouble, not before. as proved by opposing coaches, media, fans hell even our own commentators and media...remember the white board in the visitors locker room?

He is a poor shooter, period. and a small sample of him making a few corner threes does not change that. at his absolute best ever over a 6 year career he hit 33% from corner threes, and it isnt like he took 100 of them, so even that is a small example.

No one said anything about his ego, but he is used to being the man, and it is visable that he does seem to go into a my turn every now and then, like MeJay ford used to at time.

And team usa is not a valid point at all, he was a lesser talent, in a much lesser role. Karl malone on the dream team 92 was playing limited inutes in a limited role, you think he would accept a back seat on his team in Utah? Not saying Demar wouldnt I dont fucking care if he does or not, but the POINT OF IT IS THIS, he lacks the skills to be that secondary players as his defense is subpar and so is his shooting. Traditional qualities of great teamas' secondary players.

#openyoureyes

[DanH]

Actually no, DanH was the one who tried to turn this into a game of semantics by saying that it's not technically possible for a player to be average, only above or below. Which is a huge strawman considering we're not in mathematics course, we're discussing basketball. I only brought up the definition of the word to make a clear distinction between its mathematical and everyday-usage definitions.

You're being intentionally disingenuous, right? If you read one sentence beyond that point (which is perfectly valid in the discussion about defensive statistics), you'd see that I didn't even present it as an argument, I immediately said we should, instead of applying the mathematical average approach, group the players into bins and that if we did so I would place DeMar at the bottom end of the "average" bin, or perhaps the top end of the "below average" bin.

And actually watching DeRozan would tell you that he's an about average defender, and above-average within the Raptors scheme simply because he's one of the few who has both the understanding and athleticism to play it correctly on our team (the system is idiotic for the record for our personnel last year, but just wanted to point that out).

That's really good. You did it again. If anyone actually watched DeRozan they would agree with you. Of course. It's not possible that anyone who disagrees with you actually watches any basketball, right?

I agree that DeMar was above average on the team last year. Of course, above average on last year's team does not make him an average-to-above-average defensive player. Last year's team was terrible defensively.

As for the numbers his DRPM (which I think is not really a great stat, but nevertheless...) is 36th among shooting guards and 15th among starting shooting guards. So statistically if he's below average or subpar, then someone like Klay Thompson is terrible and Jimmy Butler is "average".

So he's average for a shooting guard - but who says that the average shooting guard is an average defender? Some positions tend to be more heavily skewed to defence or offence just based on the talent in the league at the time. Right now there are a lot of good defensive bigs (this is almost always the case due to the simple reality that height makes a big difference in this game). Same goes for SF - the advent of the 3 and D wing has brought in more defensive specialists. But ball handling offensive wings tend to be SG's (obviously there are exceptions) and obviously since they are valued for their offence their defence is unsurprisingly not great, on average.

[Snooch]

I have a question for you though.

You watch all 82 Raps games I guess or damn close right? And probably the whole game?

Do you watch all 82 Warriors games?

did you?