Everything Derozan

[Snooch]

Yup and he just accused me of doing this exact kind of thing earlier. It's becoming very difficult to have a proper debate on these boards because of things like this. Lol at "technically you can't be average, only above or below" I feel like I'm already back at university in one of my math lectures.

There are three main definitions for the noun "average" a mathematical one, an everyday one and a financial one. Obviously we're not using a mathematical or financial "average" here because it doesn't make any sense in an NBA context, because there is no way to 100% mathematically evaluate a player defensively.



To call DeRozan's defense usual, standard or ordinary would be accurate no?

you guys are arguing word definition to try and skirt away from the fact that Demar is not an average defender.

No numbers will support that theory, and no eye test will support that theory.

[Snooch]

And with that we can consider this discussion derailed.


So I'm just going to totally switch the topic.

What shoes do you guys think DeRozan will wear on opening night?

one with a differnt teams colours and logo.

[JWash]

you guys are arguing word definition to try and skirt away from the fact that Demar is not an average defender.

No numbers will support that theory, and no eye test will support that theory.

Actually no, DanH was the one who tried to turn this into a game of semantics by saying that it's not technically possible for a player to be average, only above or below. Which is a huge strawman considering we're not in mathematics course, we're discussing basketball. I only brought up the definition of the word to make a clear distinction between its mathematical and everyday-usage definitions.

And actually watching DeRozan would tell you that he's an about average defender, and above-average within the Raptors scheme simply because he's one of the few who has both the understanding and athleticism to play it correctly on our team (the system is idiotic for the record for our personnel last year, but just wanted to point that out).

As for the numbers his DRPM (which I think is not really a great stat, but nevertheless...) is 36th among shooting guards and 15th among starting shooting guards. So statistically if he's below average or subpar, then someone like Klay Thompson is terrible and Jimmy Butler is "average".

[JWash]

one with a differnt teams colours and logo.

I chuckled, have a like.

However, DeRozan is definitely going to be a Raptor on opening night, and I think he'll still be one in the final game of his career.

[Snooch]

Actually no, DanH was the one who tried to turn this into a game of semantics by saying that it's not technically possible for a player to be average, only above or below. Which is a huge strawman considering we're not in mathematics course, we're discussing basketball. I only brought up the definition of the word to make a clear distinction between its mathematical and everyday-usage definitions.

And actually watching DeRozan would tell you that he's an about average defender, and above-average within the Raptors scheme simply because he's one of the few who has both the understanding and athleticism to play it correctly on our team (the system is idiotic for the record for our personnel last year, but just wanted to point that out).

As for the numbers his DRPM (which I think is not really a great stat, but nevertheless...) is 36th among shooting guards and 15th among starting shooting guards. So statistically if he's below average or subpar, then someone like Klay Thompson is terrible and Jimmy Butler is "average".

I am gonna try an make my point on this simple.

In order to be an above average defender you would need to be able to check an above average offensive player.

Demar doesn't do that, not even in crunch time (so you cannot say it is to save his energy for offense). He routinely defends the more inferior of the wings on the opposing team, and all metrics used to measure a players defense shows those numbers to not be at the average level.

[thead]

I'm going to settle this for good and all

DeRozan is a slightly below average individual defender...he does okay in team concepts.

He is not your stopper or even a stopper at times.

We need to learn to look at players dispassionately.



I could see keeping him here for his entire career if he switched his focus to rebounding and passing. An effecient 16 - 18 ppg with 6 boards and 6 assists from your SG can go a long way to generating wins. If he was not the focus offensively he could expend a lot more energy defensively.

[JWash]

I am gonna try an make my point on this simple.

In order to be an above average defender you would need to be able to check an above average offensive player.

Demar doesn't do that, not even in crunch time (so you cannot say it is to save his energy for offense). He routinely defends the more inferior of the wings on the opposing team, and all metrics used to measure a players defense shows those numbers to not be at the average level.

I think the argument at this point is whether DeRozan is an average defender, which is true.

As for above average I've explained that when I said average to slightly above average I meant within the scheme of the Raptors defense which fits him well because he's an athletic, strong 6'7 wing player who has a good understanding of the system... c'est tout.

And btw if you were to make a list of #1 offensive option wings who also guard the opposing team's best player at the end of games, that list would consist entirely of elite defenders. Just saying.

[JWash]

I'm going to settle this for good and all

DeRozan is a slightly below average individual defender...he does okay in team concepts.

He is not your stopper or even a stopper at times.

We need to learn to look at players dispassionately.



I could see keeping him here for his entire career if he switched his focus to rebounding and passing. An effecient 16 - 18 ppg with 6 boards and 6 assists from your SG can go a long way to generating wins. If he was not the focus offensively he could expend a lot more energy defensively.

Agreed for the most part, I think it depends who you ask him to play individual defense on... he does pretty well on spot-up shooters (which like 80% of starting SGs are) as much as people rib him for his close-outs. It's the fast guys that can really break you down that he struggles with at times because his lateral quickness isn't great. (This is actually kind of why he did decently on LBJ because LBJ actually isn't that fast side to side).

And your last part is bang on, that's what I envision for DeRozan when we hopefully get a legit #1 option here. A guy who can still score but focuses more on being efficient on that end with a lightened load, while doing a better job defensively, on the glass and as a playmaker.

I know people think DD wouldn't touch the ball enough to be useful if he was a 2nd option, but I don't buy that. There are plenty of examples of 2nd option guards/wings who have usage that is actually about equivalent to DeMar's right now (28%). Klay Thompson was at 28%, Kyrie 26%, Monta Ellis 28%, even Beal who was kind of 2nd option by committee on WAS was at 23%.

Don't see how DD wouldn't get enough touches and ~25% usage if (please God) Durant were to come here for example.

[draps]

He is not a below average defender
The beginning of the year we were 9th on defence, then when demar got injured the worst in the league
He plays the team concept well and rarely gets blown by or beat in isolation
It would be way to hard to put maximum effort on that end nightly but we've seen him step up guarding guys like Lebron and harden when needed

[Snooch]

I think the argument at this point is whether DeRozan is an average defender, which is true.

As for above average I've explained that when I said average to slightly above average I meant within the scheme of the Raptors defense which fits him well because he's an athletic, strong 6'7 wing player who has a good understanding of the system... c'est tout.

And btw if you were to make a list of #1 offensive option wings who also guard the opposing team's best player at the end of games, that list would consist entirely of elite defenders. Just saying.

yes that list would, but any allstar caliber player is going to take on that challenge if they had the physical gifts demar has, in end of game situations.

And if he was the great defender he would do it as well throughout the game.

And in terms of being average by teams standards, I guess you are right there. He is an average defender on a bad defensive team. put him on a good defensive team and that average becomes bad.

[JWash]

yes that list would, but any allstar caliber player is going to take on that challenge if they had the physical gifts demar has, in end of game situations.

And if he was the great defender he would do it as well throughout the game.

And in terms of being average by teams standards, I guess you are right there. He is an average defender on a bad defensive team. put him on a good defensive team and that average becomes bad.

Disagree with the beginning part, for example Durant has crazy tools defensively and almost never guards the opponents best wing player.

I think part of the problem is the way the Raps developed DeRozan. He should've been treated the way Jimmy Butler or Paul George were (although the later has way better defensive tools than DD or JB), DeRozan was projected to have a lot of potential on the defensive end (i.e to become elite) but it didn't happen because it wasn't a focus for the team, at all.

And I didn't say he's average by team standards, I said he's average by league standards and above average on our team because he's one of the few who can play the system well.

[Snooch]

Disagree with the beginning part, for example Durant has crazy tools defensively and almost never guards the opponents best wing player.

I think part of the problem is the way the Raps developed DeRozan. He should've been treated the way Jimmy Butler or Paul George were (although the later has way better defensive tools than DD or JB), DeRozan was projected to have a lot of potential on the defensive end (i.e to become elite) but it didn't happen because it wasn't a focus for the team, at all.

And I didn't say he's average by team standards, I said he's average by league standards and above average on our team because he's one of the few who can play the system well.

the first part, Durant has a killer instinct, and when the game is on the line, he is one the ball. Unless there is a better defender on his team.

Demar could be the top defender on the team, he chooses not to.

Last part:
He is below average by every metric available in regards to his defense

And he is the Last season defensive rating for team was 107.7 which is an average of all players on the team, Demars was 109. 109 is a biggeer number than 107. herefore Demar is a below average defender on this team, but i gave him the benefit of the doubt and agreed with him being average.

And being able to fit the system, that is a weak arguement.
Oh and just an FYI.

Lou williams was a 109
GV was a 110
Ross was a 110.

So Demar was very slightly better a defender than GV and Ross last season........

and in DRPM he was 11th on the team at a minus 1.4...very sub average.

and also
Demar had the second lowest value over replacement player on the team. Only ahead of Chuck Hayes and DNPs.

[Snooch]

On this team...

Demar ranked:
12th in TS% - worst guard/sf
10th in TRB% - 3rd Guard/sf
3rd in assist% - 3rd best guard/sf
7th in steal% - 5th best guard/sf
11th in block% - 5th best guard/sf
5th in turnover% - 3rd best guard/sf
1st in usage!
6th in offensive win shares - 3rd best guard/sf
6th in defensive win shares - 3rd best guard/sf
9th in win shares per 48 - 4th best guard/sf
10th in OBPM - 6th best guard/sf
11th in DBPM - 4th best guard/sf
11th in BPM - 6th best guard/sf
11th in defensive rating - 5th best guard/sf
11th in offensive rating - 6th best guard/sf

[JWash]

the first part, Durant has a killer instinct, and when the game is on the line, he is one the ball. Unless there is a better defender on his team.

Demar could be the top defender on the team, he chooses not to.

Last part:
He is below average by every metric available in regards to his defense

And he is the Last season defensive rating for team was 107.7 which is an average of all players on the team, Demars was 109. 109 is a biggeer number than 107. herefore Demar is a below average defender on this team, but i gave him the benefit of the doubt and agreed with him being average.

And being able to fit the system, that is a weak arguement.
Oh and just an FYI.

Lou williams was a 109
GV was a 110
Ross was a 110.

So Demar was very slightly better a defender than GV and Ross last season........

and in DRPM he was 11th on the team at a minus 1.4...very sub average.

and also
Demar had the second lowest value over replacement player on the team. Only ahead of Chuck Hayes and DNPs.

Using dRTG to determine how good a player is defensively, even among his teammates is unwise and inaccurate. That would tell you that Carlos Boozer was the 2nd best defender on the 2013-14 Bulls (when they were an elite defensive team and not slightly above average like last year), and Jimmy Butler was just ok.

[Wild-ling#1]

You're talking about DD's defence.

Isn't this a bit like discussing how good a player Tyler Bozak is? He's been a poor +/- player every year as a Leaf, while scoring nearly 50 points in three out of the last four seasons. But he's being asked to do too much as a number one center on a poor team. If the Leafs get a "true" number 1 center, his "usage" drops, the team improves, and so on.

We're hoping that the addition of Carroll, CoJo, Wright and Powell will put PG's and SG's into their natural roles, while easing their defensive assignments and improving the team (while allowing starters to rest more). DD and KL being healthy will help. KL's apparent fitness and DD's penchant for self-improvement (he's still only 25) and character should also help.

I don't think any more stat-based discussions are going to convince anyone who believes DD is "below average" of anything. I'm hoping that time will prove those those of us who see room for improvement right.

Is there anyone who doesn't see room for improvement? Is there anyone who is not hoping it will manifest, one might ask?