Everything Derozan

[SkywalkerAC]

DeMar's defensive improvements have been quite subtle, but he has gone from being a gaping hole in the defense to a guy that you can count on because positionally he's become a veteran. Last year the entire defense was a mess, and the team was shrimpy, but this is a very different team around him now. Lowry/DeMar/Carroll have the chance to be one of the bigger/tougher/better perimeter-trios out there, then we've got lanky athletes out the wazoo for once.

It's going to be very interesting to see if he can ramp it up to another level as his usage and maybe minutes are brought down while the defense around him picks up. I predict a quick turnaround in DeMar's defensive statistics but I'm just excited to see the results of his offseason evolution - after finishing the season strong, his team bombing in the playoffs, and going into a contract season with a much better team around him.

[JWash]

If your argument is going to be "subjective, I know, but that's my opinion," you should lead with that and not engage in the stats discussion at all.

I never said that DD is a player that needs to be hidden. I said he was a below average defender. He won't hurt you much defensively. But he's not contributing defensively - he has no real "plus" value there.

There's plenty of room for below average defenders in this league. The concern with DeRozan is how he falls short in so many areas, and when people bring up his defence as an area where he is solid or reliable, as a defence of his overall game when those other areas come under attack, I find it hard to reconcile with what I've perceived to be the reality of the situation.

I'm not totally dismissing stats, I'm normally a huge proponent of incorporating statistics into any discussion, it's just in this case I don't think there's enough consistency in DRPM to use it to label a guy as a bad defender or even an elite one tbh. And I think a subjective argument is suitable here because defense, particularly on an individual level is really one of the most subjective NBA topics.

What you just described to me is an "average" defender (" He won't hurt you much defensively. But he's not contributing defensively - he has no real "plus" value there."). To me a below average defender is someone who does in fact hurt you defensively, and requires some sort of adjustment from the team to compensate for his ineptitude on defense (a Bargnani, a Monta Ellis). They're usually guys who have flaws that prevent them from defending their position.

To me an above average defender adds value to your team defensively and you benefit defensively from having them on the court. The only reason I said DD was average to slightly above average is because he does provide value defensively to the Raptors in their current system as he's one of the only ones who's capable of playing it well. Obviously the system itself is pretty bad for our personnel (last year anyway). However, yeah in the general scope of the NBA he's just average.

[MACK11]

These are my personal barometers for defense when looking around the league

Terrible - Bargnani, Steve Novak
Below Average - Calderon, Vasquez
Average - Wilson Chandler, Joe Johnson
Above Average - DeMarre, James Johnson
Elite - MKG, Tony Allen

[Chr1s1anL]

I would consider Thompson a below average defender (not by much, similar to DeMar), yes.

Lol

[special1]

Demar is average to above average defensively..... Way better than Vasquez/Calderon.... Even better than Ross as he's stronger and smarter.

It all comes back to usage.

Jimmy Butler said that his defence suffered due to the offensive load he had to carry.

I look at Demar and I don't see why he couldn't be a solid above average defender. Many of his skeptics admit the same.

People don't seem to understand that it's really hard to be a lock down defender while having superstar type usage. Very few players can handle that burden (Jordan/Kobe?).




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[BS10]

These are my personal barometers for defense when looking around the league

Terrible - Bargnani, Steve Novak
Below Average - Calderon, Vasquez
Average - Wilson Chandler, Joe Johnson
Above Average - DeMarre, James Johnson
Elite - MKG, Tony Allen

According to these standards, DD would fall under average at best

[SkywalkerAC]

And is MKG a significantly better defender than Carroll?

[DanH]

Well, I would consider Vasquez, Bargnani, Calderon, Novak and Ross as all terrible defenders. So perhaps my definition of average is different than some.

[DanH]

And is MKG a significantly better defender than Carroll?

Hmm... Yes. Very much so.

[JWash]

Well, I would consider Vasquez, Bargnani, Calderon, Novak and Ross as all terrible defenders. So perhaps my definition of average is different than some.

Who would you consider average?

[DanH]

Demar is average to above average defensively..... Way better than Vasquez/Calderon.... Even better than Ross as he's stronger and smarter.

It all comes back to usage.

Jimmy Butler said that his defence suffered due to the offensive load he had to carry.

I look at Demar and I don't see why he couldn't be a solid above average defender. Many of his skeptics admit the same.

People don't seem to understand that it's really hard to be a lock down defender while having superstar type usage. Very few players can handle that burden (Jordan/Kobe?).




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This is a good point. It is absolutely possible that DeMar is capable of playing above average defence if he had a lesser offensive role. The problem is that a) he has never demonstrated such an ability, so it is more hope than expectation, and b) he has never demonstrated that he is a positive contributor in a secondary role - his best season by far being 2013-14 after the Gay trade, when his value was largely based in posting decent (not great, but acceptable) percentages on very high usage.

[JWash]

Can I just share this with OSK and mcHAPPY (and the rest of RR of course) who have seriously entertained the idea of trading DD for a mid-late 1st? Just let me know if this is what you want to read a few months from now lol:

October 1st, 2015
ESPN.com
The Associated Press
By Chris Broussard

BREAKING --- The Toronto Raptors have dealt DeMar DeRozan to the Utah Jazz for their 1st round pick in 2016. League officials are dumbfounded by the trade, when asked for comment, Ujiri simply responded, "We're looking to free up room for KD and DD is going to ask for a max, so we had to pull the trigger". Durant, when asked about the idea of joining the Raptors, burst into laughter for over three hours, he is currently in the the Oklahoma City General Hospital being treated for severe chest pain.

Please tell me how we would not be the laughingstock of the NBA after such a brainless move?

[DanH]

Who would you consider average?

Well, DeMar is certainly close to that range - technically one can really only be above or below average (likelihood of being exactly average is obviously very low). But if we were to group players into buckets, DeMar would probably be on the low end of the "average" bin, maybe on the high end of "below average". In fact I would say he is above average as a team defender, though below average individually, enough so that he is a net negative though not by much.

My reaction to your assessment of "average to above average" is that although DeMar has been approaching average defensive value over his career, he's never been above average by any measure. So I certainly don't consider him above average at all. That's my only disagreement with that assessment. To say he is in the "average" range doesn't particularly bother me - I am simply trying to point out that his defence should never be used as a strength of his when judging his contributions. He's improved a lot from his early days of terrible, terrible defence to the point where he is now. I think those improvements get viewed by some as performing as a positive contributor defensively, and I just disagree with that notion.

[JWash]

Well, DeMar is certainly close to that range - technically one can really only be above or below average (likelihood of being exactly average is obviously very low). But if we were to group players into buckets, DeMar would probably be on the low end of the "average" bin, maybe on the high end of "below average". In fact I would say he is above average as a team defender, though below average individually, enough so that he is a net negative though not by much.

My reaction to your assessment of "average to above average" is that although DeMar has been approaching average defensive value over his career, he's never been above average by any measure. So I certainly don't consider him above average at all. That's my only disagreement with that assessment. To say he is in the "average" range doesn't particularly bother me - I am simply trying to point out that his defence should never be used as a strength of his when judging his contributions. He's improved a lot from his early days of terrible, terrible defence to the point where he is now. I think those improvements get viewed by some as performing as a positive contributor defensively, and I just disagree with that notion.

Dude I don't think we're very far off on the assessment of DeMar defensively here... think it's just syntax lol. I agree with most of what you just wrote. I never speak of DD's defense as a strength, I just don't view it as a weakness because he's adequate on that end, that's all.

[raptors999]

Demar is average to above average defensively..... Way better than Vasquez/Calderon.... Even better than Ross as he's stronger and smarter.

It all comes back to usage.

Jimmy Butler said that his defence suffered due to the offensive load he had to carry.

I look at Demar and I don't see why he couldn't be a solid above average defender. Many of his skeptics admit the same.

People don't seem to understand that it's really hard to be a lock down defender while having superstar type usage. Very few players can handle that burden (Jordan/Kobe?).




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On ball he is but off-ball he doesn't really get a lot of steals or blocks. The wide open threes are a system issue. Demar has every tool to be a good defender but he has never been in a good defensive system and Casey has elected to reduce defensive burdens to let him take more terrible shots.