Everything Derozan

[Mindlessness]

Honestly I've seen anything like this. You would think he was Bargnani or something.

And we've honestly never seen posts about Jonas like yours. We would think Jonas is Bargnani or something to you.

[Wild-ling#1]

...what?

(A citizens council of the smartest people take over Springfield and make all sorts of whacky - though well-reasoned, of course - "improvements", such as:

" ... banning green traffic lights and playing only classical music at the dog races. ... However, they begin to internally fight over other ideas such as having theaters for shadow puppets and a broccoli juice program, and their wildly unpopular plans at a public meeting (including the banning of all contact sports and Comic Book Guy's plan to limit breeding to every 7 years) further expose the rifts inside the group.

[MACK11]

Still going around in circles I see lol

[Mindlessness]

(A citizens council of the smartest people take over Springfield and make all sorts of whacky - though well-reasoned, of course - "improvements", such as:

" ... banning green traffic lights and playing only classical music at the dog races, which elevates Springfield past East St. Louis on the list of America's 300 Most Livable Cities. However, they begin to internally fight over other ideas such as having theaters for shadow puppets and a broccoli juice program, and their wildly unpopular plans at a public meeting (including the banning of all contact sports and Comic Book Guy's plan to limit breeding to every 7 years) further expose the rifts inside the group.

So, you're comparing Dan to Springfield citizens and their horrible ideas because he doesn't want us to sign DD for $20M+? That's, uh, um, kind of insulting actually, from my perspective. I've never watched the Simpsons.

[Quirk]

This is an opinion/argument.

Why is this still being discussed? DeMar DeRozan is an absolutely amazing basketball player! His combination of skill and athleticism, discipline and commitment to get better is off the charts. He's way more than 1 in a million. He's like 400 in 7 billion. Imagine that, out of the 7 billion people on the planet, there are just hundreds of people in the whole world that are even close. That's like 0.00000006% of people.

It's very clear DeMar DeRozan is a very special human being and a very special basketball player. He is rightly an inspiration to many, many people, and deservedly has many fans.

The trouble is, of those 400 or so players that can play at his level, many of them play in the NBA, and within that group, he is about in the middle. About "Average" (sorry DanH),.

What an amazing achievement! DeMar DeRozan is a league-average player in the best basketball league in the world! Very few people achieve this, heck, very few NBA draft picks achieve this!

However it also means there are many players in the NBA that are even better than him, at least three (I would say four) of them currently on his team, and that if you want to win in the NBA, then you certainly need average players, but those players can not either dominate your possessions, your court time, nor your salary cap, otherwise you will be at a disadvantage relative to teams that put the ball and the money in the hands of better players.

Would it be great to have DeRozan as our 5th man? Yes! Absolutely! He can even still be a starter, after all, very few teams have 5 above average starters! But, this means that he needs to accept the role of a 5th man, in terms of both usage and salary. Will he? I doubt it. Meaning that the only way to keep him is pay him a higher salary and allow him to have a higher usage that his production and skill level justifies. And that is a very bad idea if you are trying to build a competitive basketball team.


Why is this so difficult to grasp?

[Snooch]

This is an opinion/argument. Only that. And at least you have the wherewithal to acknowledge that an as yet unidentified actual NBA general manager will likely back the contrary view ... with $100M or so. And his job. Precisely because it will likely be understood, by those who actually get to make these decisions, that it will take about that much money to secure his services.

My problem with your argument is not that it is unsupportable. I remind you that I am not suggesting that my player-evaluation abilities are superior to anyone's. Or even as good. It is that your argument, as often stated, and while you know these things

(1) typically, or side-steps, the fact that DD and KL have made us a perennial playoff team on the rise. It side-steps the views (not mine) of those who select all-star teams and U.S. National Teams ... and those of people who know Demar personally (and those who play with him) that he is a man of character who, by himself, makes Toronto a more attractive free agent destination.

and (most especially)

(2) is relentlessly negative ... and yet speculative (and needlessly in advance of seeing how Masai's new team performs) regarding an all-star player on our home team. I am here to enjoy following the Raptors. I like critical reasoning. I do not like disrespectful and insulting diatribes about our own guys. Unless they're confirmed A-holes. Sue me.

But I suspect your problem is really with the free market. Perhaps you would be more comfortable with some kind of "command economy" ... with you (and Snooch and a select "geniocracy") providing the values for players.

I remind you that this is precisely the kind of thing they tried in Springfield - where an obscure rule of the constitution allowed for a citizens council to take control of the government (The episode is called "They Saved Lisa's Brain". Stephen Hawking guest stars).

The results were, shall we say ... slightly below average.

Maybe you can spot yourselves in image below:

First off, Dan's assertions of Demar being a sup average defender amongst his teammates on a bad defensive team are completely supported.

Why is lowry being brought into a demar debate?

What in the fuck does the allstar team and team usa have to do with him not being worth a max contract based on his defense-to which alot of discussion was based. If you are inferring that his Character makes people want to come to Toronto that is a whole lot of speculation. I could say that people want to play for the Raptors cause Mike Holmes is an awesome guy and lives near toronto.

The discussion here are revolving around some posters high view of a player, and those who point out differences in those incredibly high views. Criticisms are not Negativity. And no one has said anything about demar on a personal level that suggests an attack on character.

And why are you trying to comapare basketball discussion with an episode of the simpsons?

[Snooch]

Honestly I've seen anything like this. You would think he was Bargnani or something.

It became a discussion when he was claimed to be an above average defender, to which people rebutted, then the goalposs were moved, and people rebutted, and now it shouldnt be talked about....

[CalgaryRapsFan]

So, you're comparing Dan to Springfield citizens and their horrible ideas because he doesn't want us to sign DD for $20M+? That's, uh, um, kind of insulting actually, from my perspective. I've never watched the Simpsons.

The other thing - one that many of DeRozan's most passionate supporters even agree with - is that DeRozan is ideally suited to be a #2 or possibly even #3 option on a team that is good enough to be a true contender. If DeRozan is paid upwards of a quarter of the team's salary cap, how can MU be expected to acquire the unknown #1 option? If the rest of the team (at least those making substantial money) is gutted to do so, which includes at least a few players who would appear to have skillsets that are more complimentary of any #1 option (ie: Carroll's 3&D), how exactly does that benefit the team?

A team with the new #1 and DeRozan, along with minimum wage rookie-scale and vet-minimum players, doesn't seem to be overly balanced. For many, the reason for arriving at the "DeRozan must go" decision has very little to actually do with DeRozan at all; it's more about evaluating the realistic options for team-building around a yet-to-be-determined/acquired new #1 option.

If I am given a #1 scoring option and asked to build a team around that guy, I want players who can defend, rebound, hit 3pt shots and pass. DeRozan is average-at-best in all of those categories, and certainly isn't a specialist in any of them. Therefore, it seems like he wouldn't be a good fit alongside this new #1 option. When you consider the fact that he'll likely demand (per market value next offseason) $20-25M per season, it doesn't make any sense to pay an ill-fitting #2 option that kind of money. It doesn't matter what team you're talking about or what name is on the back of the jersey; it's just a bad fit and the opportunity cost really limits how MU can further build the team.

[Snooch]

Why is this still being discussed? DeMar DeRozan is an absolutely amazing basketball player! His combination of skill and athleticism, discipline and commitment to get better is off the charts. He's way more than 1 in a million. He's like 400 in 7 billion. Imagine that, out of the 7 billion people on the planet, there are just hundreds of people in the whole world that are even close. That's like 0.00000006% of people.

It's very clear DeMar DeRozan is a very special human being and a very special basketball player. He is rightly an inspiration to many, many people, and deservedly has many fans.

The trouble is, of those 400 or so players that can play at his level, many of them play in the NBA, and within that group, he is about in the middle. About "Average" (sorry DanH),.

What an amazing achievement! DeMar DeRozan is a league-average player in the best basketball league in the world! Very few people achieve this, heck, very few NBA draft picks achieve this!

However it also means there are many players in the NBA that are even better than him, at least three (I would say four) of them currently on his team, and that if you want to win in the NBA, then you certainly need average players, but those players can not either dominate your possessions, your court time, nor your salary cap, otherwise you will be at a disadvantage relative to teams that put the ball and the money in the hands of better players.

Would it be great to have DeRozan as our 5th man? Yes! Absolutely! He can even still be a starter, after all, very few teams have 5 above average starters! But, this means that he needs to accept the role of a 5th man, in terms of both usage and salary. Will he? I doubt it. Meaning that the only way to keep him is pay him a higher salary and allow him to have a higher usage that his production and skill level justifies. And that is a very bad idea if you are trying to build a competitive basketball team.


Why is this so difficult to grasp?

all of that is very simple to grasp,

but what you are missing still, which has been the basis of the debate for the last couple of days is that

A) Demar is NOT and average defender, not matter how many times someone says it, analytics show that he IS NOT.

b) Demar as a secondary through 5th starter is not a role that his best traits are suited for

c) Demar at 24-27 million dollars is FAR TOO EXPENSIVE to fill that role of #2-whatever.

That is what people have a hard time getting.

[JWash]

The other thing - one that many of DeRozan's most passionate supporters even agree with - is that DeRozan is ideally suited to be a #2 or possibly even #3 option on a team that is good enough to be a true contender. If DeRozan is paid upwards of a quarter of the team's salary cap, how can MU be expected to acquire the unknown #1 option? If the rest of the team (at least those making substantial money) is gutted to do so, which includes at least a few players who would appear to have skillsets that are more complimentary of any #1 option (ie: Carroll's 3&D), how exactly does that benefit the team?

A team with the new #1 and DeRozan, along with minimum wage rookie-scale and vet-minimum players, doesn't seem to be overly balanced. For many, the reason for arriving at the "DeRozan must go" decision has very little to actually do with DeRozan at all; it's more about evaluating the realistic options for team-building around a yet-to-be-determined/acquired new #1 option.

Via trade.

[Snooch]

The other thing - one that many of DeRozan's most passionate supporters even agree with - is that DeRozan is ideally suited to be a #2 or possibly even #3 option on a team that is good enough to be a true contender. If DeRozan is paid upwards of a quarter of the team's salary cap, how can MU be expected to acquire the unknown #1 option? If the rest of the team (at least those making substantial money) is gutted to do so, which includes at least a few players who would appear to have skillsets that are more complimentary of any #1 option (ie: Carroll's 3&D), how exactly does that benefit the team?

A team with the new #1 and DeRozan, along with minimum wage rookie-scale and vet-minimum players, doesn't seem to be overly balanced. For many, the reason for arriving at the "DeRozan must go" decision has very little to actually do with DeRozan at all; it's more about evaluating the realistic options for team-building around a yet-to-be-determined/acquired new #1 option.

this right here.....


Although I prefer to add that he will no longer be a raptor as a sort of icing on the cake.

[Snooch]

Via trade.

so who do you trade then?

All depth? between every single player off the bench and capspace we couldnt affoprd a max player that would take a 1A spot.

Or do we trade a starter?

So Trade our best player in Lowry and go with Demar and a #1 option with unproven PGs.

Or Trade away JV and be left with no front court.


Resigning Demar and trading for that unknown #1 option is far and away the most unrealistic option available.

[JWash]

Via trade.

Just to expand on this a bit. Boston had some pretty big contracts on the books in Wally Z and Ratliff when they traded for Ray Allen and KG (who both had huge contracts in their own rights). Golden State also did a lot of maneuvering the year they acquired Iguodala. It's not impossible... and we're actually at a little bit of advantage because we're signing DD/Val this coming offseason, and then the cap is going up again by 21%

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Via trade.

You didn't read the rest of my post. I didn't mean how from a technical standpoint, but rather from a salary-cap standpoint.

I'm talking in terms of needing to make salaries match. Who would you trade, that has both value and salary? Lowry is definitely an option, but that would severely weaken the PG spot. Carroll is another option, but his 3&D skillset is far more complimentary to any new #1 option than DeRozan (hence my claim is 'gutting the team').

That's why I keep arriving at DeRozan as the logical choice to either be dealt in trade for the new #1, or to be dealt (or let walk as a free agent) to free up cap space to sign the new #1.

[JWash]

You didn't read the rest of my post.

I'm talking in terms of needing to make salaries match. Who would you trade, that has both value and salary? Lowry is definitely an option, but that would severely weaken the PG spot. Carroll is another option, but his 3&D skillset is far more complimentary to any new #1 option than DeRozan (hence my claim is 'gutting the team').

That's why I keep arriving at DeRozan as the logical choice to either be dealt in trade for the new #1, or to be dealt (or let walk as a free agent) to free up cap space to sign the new #1.

I read all of your post.

We could acquire said player via trade. And in the event that signing DD is actually blocking you from signing a Durant you obviously S&T DD or let him walk and sign KD, it's not rocket science. But a trade could also be made WITH DD on the roster for said superstar.

Just don't see the point in trading him now. Do you guys already have a deal lined up for a superstar or something? If we strike out on KD there isn't one in FA this year. Might as well keep DD as a trade chip even if you don't like him, he could be used to match salary in a trade even.