Everything Derozan

[Primer]

We can send DD in a sign and trade for Durant, but only if he wants to be signed-and-traded to OKC (or we manage a three-plus team trade where DD goes where he wants and Durant comes here like the Marion/Turkoglu 4-teamer from BC's days).

Any trade for Durant will need to fall in the 125% rule, if the Raptors operate over the cap - Durant will make a starting salary of roughly 25M, so that means sending out 20M in salary. Ross and PP make 16M, so you'd need another small salary to make it work, and there aren't many candidates on the Raptors right now.

But if you don't operate over the cap, you can make a sign and trade for Durant work very easily. Let DD walk, let JJ and Scola and Biyombo and Bennett walk. Then you have about 15M in cap room. That means sending out only 10M in salary can allow you to absorb 25M of salary coming back. So, Ross plus picks plus prospects for Durant. No problem.

If you want to keep DD instead of Carroll, then obviously you can go Carroll and Ross or Carroll and Patterson for Durant (but I doubt OKC would want anything to do with Carroll's long term deal - if Durant leaves that's a team that needs asploding). Benefit is you can use the MLE to re-sign a guy like Biyombo or Scola, can re-sign JJ with Bird Rights, keep a little more depth. Downside is the extreme unlikelihood of it happening - teams simply do not take on high paid role players without some perceived potential in trades of their superstars.

That said, I've been steadfast in my opinion that any sign and trade has too many moving parts to be considered a viable plan A unless you've got a foolproof plan B - and although a plan B of staying over the cap and re-signing a bunch of guys is solid and gives you assets to be flipped for an upgrade later, it's also one that can disappear if you spend too long chasing Durant, then strike out, but not before your plan B guys (DD, Scola, BB, JJ) have agreed to sign elsewhere.

I'm pretty damn sure they'd take 3 years of Carroll with PPat over 4 years of Ross and whatever else. Carroll gives them a great starting SF to replace Durant, keeping them competitive, and giving them a good chance to resign Westbrook and Ibaka. Westbrook loves to dominate the ball and take a bazillion shots, which is why he's not a great pairing with Durant in the first place. I don't think OKC looks to blow it up if Durant wants out, I think they do whatever they can to keep Westbrook and Ibaka around, which this trade would do since PPat expires right when they need the extra money to pay Westbrook and Ibaka, and Carroll gives them a great starting SF to pair with those guys, for $10M less per year than Durant (even more money to bring those guys back). I'm sure we'd also throw in two 1sts, so they'd have lots of young guys and picks to move around to upgrade the SG spot and have a contending team. OKC is a super small market and would never recover if they lose Durant and Westbrook and Ibaka.

Most likely, Durant does the 1 year deal with player option, but if not, the above trade seems like a very good scenario for them.

[Snooch]

I'm pretty damn sure they'd take 3 years of Carroll with PPat over 4 years of Ross and whatever else. Carroll gives them a great starting SF to replace Durant, keeping them competitive, and giving them a good chance to resign Westbrook and Ibaka. Westbrook loves to dominate the ball and take a bazillion shots, which is why he's not a great pairing with Durant in the first place. I don't think OKC looks to blow it up if Durant wants out, I think they do whatever they can to keep Westbrook and Ibaka around, which this trade would do since PPat expires right when they need the extra money to pay Westbrook and Ibaka, and Carroll gives them a great starting SF to pair with those guys, for $10M less per year than Durant (even more money to bring those guys back). I'm sure we'd also throw in two 1sts, so they'd have lots of young guys and picks to move around to upgrade the SG spot and have a contending team. OKC is a super small market and would never recover if they lose Durant and Westbrook and Ibaka.

Most likely, Durant does the 1 year deal with player option, but if not, the above trade seems like a very good scenario for them.

Im sure they would take carroll over ross.

Dont think anyone would disagree with that

Question remains why would they want carroll

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[JWash]

Im sure they would take carroll over ross.

Dont think anyone would disagree with that

Question remains why would they want carroll

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Wait a sec. This is a huge contradiction.

You're saying they would take Carroll over Ross, but questioning why they would want Carroll? So why would they want Ross then if they prefer Carroll? If they want neither Carroll nor Ross, there is no way for us to get Durant without sign & trading JV or Lowry unless DeMar wants to go to OKC over the other 28 teams in the league he could go to. So we're dead in the water.

[Primer]

Im sure they would take carroll over ross.

Dont think anyone would disagree with that

Question remains why would they want carroll

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If they're going to lose Durant, they'd need a new SF, so that's why they'd want Carroll. Amazing defender, great complimentary player on offense, great teammate. They literally have no one else on their roster worthy of SF minutes other than Durant. Getting a guy like Carroll keeps them competitive, and lets them spend elsewhere, like resigning Westbrook and Ibaka.

Of course this wall all in my post above too.

[planetmars]

This is why it's nice to have cap space. Miami had cap space and wanted Bosh.. Toronto got a S&T done, but the return back was pathetic. They got back their own pick (but was lottery protected until 2015 - ie, Bruno), Miami's pick (which was traded for James Johnson) and a TPE.

If the Raptors have cap space, and KD wants to go to Toronto, then that's the type of haul OKC will take back. A bunch of crappy first rounders and a TPE.

If we do a S&T and have to balance salary then we're going to have to unload a good player (Ross isn't a good player) and hope OKC says yes to it.. otherwise Masai will need a 3rd team and would probably have to be out West, since no Eastern team would want to help the Raptors get KD.

TR needs to be traded for cap space. Scola, JJ and DD need to buh-bye. And Biyombo needs to drop his player option. That's the best case scenario for me.

[S.R.]

This is why it's nice to have cap space. Miami had cap space and wanted Bosh.. Toronto got a S&T done, but the return back was pathetic. They got back their own pick (but was lottery protected until 2015 - ie, Bruno), Miami's pick (which was traded for James Johnson) and a TPE.

If the Raptors have cap space, and KD wants to go to Toronto, then that's the type of haul OKC will take back. A bunch of crappy first rounders and a TPE.

If we do a S&T and have to balance salary then we're going to have to unload a good player (Ross isn't a good player) and hope OKC says yes to it.. otherwise Masai will need a 3rd team and would probably have to be out West, since no Eastern team would want to help the Raptors get KD.

TR needs to be traded for cap space. Scola, JJ and DD need to buh-bye. And Biyombo needs to drop his player option. That's the best case scenario for me.

I know you didn't just call Bruno a crappy first rounder.

[planetmars]

I know you didn't just call Bruno a crappy first rounder.

Lol... no, but he was selected #20.. In my revised history, Masai trades into the draft and selects Bruno anyway

[tDotted]

Man, he was awful in 12-13, it's why no team other than Detroit had any interest, and they were super desperate and had poor management.

.465 FG%, awful for a PF
97 ORTG, one of the worst in the entire NBA
.517 FT%, that's awful
WS/48 of 0.075, which is beyond terrible
TS% .501, way below NBA average, and especially awful for a PF

He was on a steep decline, and rapidly got worse. Nothing like Derozan.

Year before he lead the entire league in Defensive Win Shares and was 4th among PFs in his 'awful' 12-13 season...He went from a career high 21.1 PER in 11-12 to about an 18 PER (second on the team) the following year.

Not seeing a steep decline in those numbers.

But fine.. if you think him putting up numbers only 8 HOFs have reached is "awful", I guess I can't change your mind lol.

[Wild-ling#1]

What? Nogueira had a team high on-court net rating of +12. So it worked fine.

And when he was on the court, the team grabbed 85% of available defensive rebounds - not sure where you are seeing an abundance of second chance possessions for the Nuggets. That's great - who cares if he individually was grabbing them? Sure, they didn't get any offensive rebounds, but they had a 63% eFG% so there weren't a lot to be had anyway.

For all his individual struggles, Patterson has always and continued to in this game provide spacing for the team that Scola, for all his improved shooting, simply doesn't. So the team had a 120 ORTG with Patterson out there - why take him out? In what way could he possibly have been hurting the offence?

And he tried James Johnson for FOUR MINUTES. A fair shot if there ever was one.

I have the ESPN-GameHQ boxscore open now, listing Lucas at +3. (Scola +10 ... DC -8 and Biz -17! Ugh!).

Different stats (But "Wildling invites Stat-War With Dan Hackett!" is not a headline I want to see, obvioiusly )

Patterson taking three shots can't be good, can it? But I can't account for the ORTG number. We did get out-rebounded, too.

Anyway, seemed to me Casey tried a lot of combinations. And our shooting was bad (not just Lowry) ...

[Wild-ling#1]

If they're going to lose Durant, they'd need a new SF, so that's why they'd want Carroll. Amazing defender, great complimentary player on offense, great teammate. They literally have no one else on their roster worthy of SF minutes other than Durant. Getting a guy like Carroll keeps them competitive, and lets them spend elsewhere, like resigning Westbrook and Ibaka.

Of course this wall all in my post above too.

Tru' dat

[DanH]

I have the ESPN-GameHQ boxscore open now, listing Lucas at +3. (Scola +10 ... DC -8 and Biz -17! Ugh!).

Different stats (But "Wildling invites Stat-War With Dan Hackett!" is not a headline I want to see, obvioiusly )

Patterson taking three shots can't be good, can it? But I can't account for the ORTG number. We did get out-rebounded, too.

Anyway, seemed to me Casey tried a lot of combinations. And our shooting was bad (not just Lowry) ...

Net rating is plus minus per 100 possessions. Raw plus minus in small samples is really skewed by sub patterns (for example, Scola had about 5 more offensive possessions than defensive possessions, his net rating was close to break even yet he had a +10 plus minus).

[DanH]

I'm pretty damn sure they'd take 3 years of Carroll with PPat over 4 years of Ross and whatever else. Carroll gives them a great starting SF to replace Durant, keeping them competitive, and giving them a good chance to resign Westbrook and Ibaka. Westbrook loves to dominate the ball and take a bazillion shots, which is why he's not a great pairing with Durant in the first place. I don't think OKC looks to blow it up if Durant wants out, I think they do whatever they can to keep Westbrook and Ibaka around, which this trade would do since PPat expires right when they need the extra money to pay Westbrook and Ibaka, and Carroll gives them a great starting SF to pair with those guys, for $10M less per year than Durant (even more money to bring those guys back). I'm sure we'd also throw in two 1sts, so they'd have lots of young guys and picks to move around to upgrade the SG spot and have a contending team. OKC is a super small market and would never recover if they lose Durant and Westbrook and Ibaka.

Most likely, Durant does the 1 year deal with player option, but if not, the above trade seems like a very good scenario for them.

4 years of Ross? He only got a three year extension. And remember, when rebuilding, potential, even unlikely potential, is king. Ross still has the potential to be much more productive, while Carroll will very soon be on the wrong side of 30 and is likely to decline soon.

[DanH]

I'm presuming the prospect cost of the Ross trade would be lower, so that one. But either would be fine, obviously.

[Wild-ling#1]

4 years of Ross? He only got a three year extension. And remember, when rebuilding, potential, even unlikely potential, is king. Ross still has the potential to be much more productive, while Carroll will very soon be on the wrong side of 30 and is likely to decline soon.

In case you missed the RR article by Tim Chisholm on T. Ross's value today, which makes this kind of argument (quite well, I think), here it is:

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/...oss-is-a-pawn/

[Wild-ling#1]

^ Ok just wanted to make sure that there's zero value placed on DeRozan. Now this discussion makes more sense, and it's clear there won't ever be any agreement. So I guess we'll wait and see what happens.

I don't think that's quite accurate. It's clear Snooch puts a purely negative value on DeRozan (even "in a vacuum", as it were ... which I find odd), but I think DD's other detractors are prepared to acknowledge he has significant value ... but they seem to feel, for various reasons, that he's a tough "fit" for a top team, and a poor gamble, going forward, to be other than he is now.

... which I can kinda' see, actually. I wouldn't "bet the farm" on my hopes for DeMar.

But I'll concede that winning a championship is much less important to me, anyway, it seems, than most who comment here.

I wouldn't want to cheer for Russel Westbrook, for example, though I'll concede, objectively, he's a bigger talent than DeMar. But I have the impression that he's a dickhead. A good team is all I ever want to watch. And to win some exciting playoff rounds ('cause that's fun). I'll take some highs and lows, though.

So I'll be rooting for Demar wherever he ends up.

Cause I have a "no dickhead" rule. And DeMar is soooooo not a "dickhead".