Everything Derozan

[JWash]

Don't need to do anything. All advanced stats can be used to fit any narrative. Rather the eye test.

Yes advanced stats can be used to fit a narrative. But Snooch said that Butler is "far more efficient" than DeRozan and you responded by posting their FG%. There is a lot more to efficiency than FG% and TS% does a better job of encompassing that than simple raw FG% does.

Look at it this way dude, here's one example.

Player A: Takes 100 shots, all of them are 2pters, he makes 45%
Player B: Takes 100 shots, all of them are 3PTers, he makes 35%

Ok so Player A has a FG% of 45% right? On his 100 shots he scored 90 (45*2) points.
Player B has a FG% of 35% right? But on his 100 shots he scored 105 (35*3) ponts.

So if Player B is scoring more points on the same number of shots, how is he not more efficient? Even if his FG% is lower. This is what TS% tries to do, see how many points you're scoring per possession rather than just how many of your total shots are going in. It takes into account the fact that 3s are worth more than 2s and also that FTs can help players use possessions more efficiently.

[consmap]

Don't need to do anything. All advanced stats can be used to fit any narrative. Rather the eye test.

You were using raw stats to prove your point at first, but now you're saying that you prefer to use the eye test? Eye test shows that Jimmy Butler learned to shoot 3s at an average clip, something that DeMar can't do.

On top of that using the eye test alone doesn't eliminate bias or someone's personal narrative.

[Chr1s1anL]

Does your eye test say that Derozan is better than Butler?

No, it doesn't. It does show that their not that far apart. I consider them both in the same tier.

[Chr1s1anL]

Yes advanced stats can be used to fit a narrative. But Snooch said that Butler is "far more efficient" than DeRozan and yoy have responded by posting that their FG%. There is a lot more to efficiency than FG% and TS% does a better job of encompassing that than simple raw FG% does.

Look at it this way dude, here's one example.

Player A: Takes 100 shots, all of them are 2pters, he makes 45%
Player B: Takes 100 shots, all of them are 3PTers, he makes 35%

Ok so Player A has a FG% of 45% right? On his 100 shots he scored 90 (45*2) points.
Player B has a FG% of 35% right? But on his 100 shots he scored 105 (35*3) ponts.

So if Player B is scoring more points on the same number of shots, how is he not more efficient? Even if his FG% is lower. This is what TS% tries to do, see how many points you're scoring per possession rather than just how many of your total shots are going in. It takes into account the fact that 3s are worth more than 2s and also that FTs can help players use possessions more efficiently.

He also mention just pure FG% and that's what I posted. If I annoy you can just ignore me.

[Axel]

No, it doesn't.

Whew, was concerned for a moment there.

[JWash]

He also mention just pure FG% and that's what I posted. If I annoy you can just ignore me.

It's not that you specifically annoy me. What's annoying is that it makes it harder to debate in favor of DeRozan when others debating in his favor are making statements that aren't really based in any kind of factual evidence or data.

There's nothing wrong with DD being worse than Jimmy Butler. Like it's not a slight on DD, you could legitimately argue that Butler is the best 2-guard in the league (Harden only plays 1 end of the floor). Would the team get better if we traded DD for Butler? Absolutely. Will such a trade ever be available? Probably not.

[Wild-ling#1]

You can't plead "ignorance" here dude, Jimmy Butler is a better player than DeRozan period end of story, not really up for debate at all. There's literally no stat or even "eye-test" that would indicate otherwise, unless you think DD's slightly better passing is enough to overwhelm lockdown D and a significant gap in efficiency.

Look, I'll keep an eye out for it, ok? Another excuse to have a look in on some non-Rap games. Cool. And I'll likely have a look at the numbers, too. No probs.

But, until then, and especially having said that I respect the consensus, I most certainly can plead ignorance. So step off, bro'. Or "dude", if you prefer ...

[Snooch]

So he's using more possessions in Oct-Dec this year than last, but using them on better shots? Interesting.

He is driving more yes...

But comparing the first 23 games of this season to the first 23 games of last season.....

2015 - - - - - 2014

65 - Total touches - 55
59 - Front Court Touches - 48
3.9 - time per touch - 3.1
3.9 - Dribbles per touch - 3.1
.330 - points per touch - .352

2015-2015
Points per touch - touches - touch location - touches - points per touch
.500 - 3.6 - Elbow - 2.2 - .571
.733 - .7 - post - .6 - .800
.786 - .7 - post - .6 - 1.143

Looking at his touches, locations and points per touch LASt SEASON, at this time, he was quicker with the ball, handled it less and had a higher point per touch

[JWash]

Look, I'll keep an eye out for it, ok? Another excuse to have a look in on some non-Rap games. Cool. And I'll likely have a look at the numbers, too. No probs.

But, until then, and especially having said that I respect the consensus, I most certainly can plead ignorance. So step off, bro'.

I'm not trying to be a dick or whatever, but it makes it kind of hard to have a debate if one side just pleads ignorance.

I could say DeRozan is the best player in the NBA and plead ignorance that i don't watch the other 29 teams (even when we play them) and Lowry is too short for me to see him properly on TV lol.

[Chr1s1anL]

You were using raw stats to prove your point at first, but now you're saying that you prefer to use the eye test? Eye test shows that Jimmy Butler learned to shoot 3s at an average clip, something that DeMar can't do.

On top of that using the eye test alone doesn't eliminate bias or someone's personal narrative.

The dude said Butler was far more efficient and used FG% as one of the criteria and than I posted their FG%. What's the issue with what I said.

[Axel]

I'm not trying to be a dick or whatever, but it makes it kind of hard to have a debate if one side just pleads ignorance.

I could say DeRozan is the best player in the NBA and plead ignorance that i don't watch the other 29 teams (even when we play them) and Lowry is too short for me to see him properly on TV lol.

That just made me snort with laughter and draw some concerned looks from the people on the bus with me.

[Wild-ling#1]

It's not that you specifically annoy me. What's annoying is that it makes it harder to debate in favor of DeRozan when others debating in his favor are making statements that aren't really based in any kind of factual evidence or data.

There's nothing wrong with DD being worse than Jimmy Butler. Like it's not a slight on DD, you could legitimately argue that Butler is the best 2-guard in the league (Harden only plays 1 end of the floor). Would the team get better if we traded DD for Butler? Absolutely. Will such a trade ever be available? Probably not.

This is pretty close to what I think, actually. It's no slight on DD if he's not the best player in history. (I do still like to shy away from absolutes, though ... for various reasons. Which is not to say no one ever knows anything ...)

[Snooch]

DD is shooting .435 and Butler is shooting .448

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/demar_derozan/

AND

3pt% of 35.1 to 21.9
Efg% of 49.2 to 44.4
ts% of 571 to 532


amazing how you pick the weakest stat in an effort to disprove what I posted, leaving out all other shooting percentages that are not as close together, while doing nothing to moce the barometer on the "Far more efficient" part of my quote you bolded.


FYI Butlers net rating - 15
Demars - 1

[Axel]

This is pretty close to what I think, actually. It's no slight on DD if he's not the best player in history. (I do still like to shy away from absolutes, though ... for various reasons. Which is not to say no one ever knows anything ...)

Absolutes? People have trouble getting a firm opinion!

[Chr1s1anL]

It's not that you specifically annoy me. What's annoying is that it makes it harder to debate in favor of DeRozan when others debating in his favor are making statements that aren't really based in any kind of factual evidence or data.

There's nothing wrong with DD being worse than Jimmy Butler. Like it's not a slight on DD, you could legitimately argue that Butler is the best 2-guard in the league (Harden only plays 1 end of the floor). Would the team get better if we traded DD for Butler? Absolutely. Will such a trade ever be available? Probably not.

When did I say Dd was better than Butler? All I was trying to say is that their isn't that huge of a gap between the two. Their both second tier wing players.