Everything Derozan

[Barolt]

I still think we have to reserve any chest-thumping until the playoffs even though I could be doing the same; i.e., was calling DD elite offensively 2 seasons ago, based on the "golden" rule: USG>25 / ORTG>110 / MPG>30. LOL.

I still think that those are arbitrary numbers that only function to make DeMar look good. He's good offensively, but when you concoct a set of requirements that rules out players in MVP consideration(Draymond Green is somehow not elite offensively?), I tend to think it's a flawed requirement.

[Wild-ling#1]

While some of the pro-DD camp certainly believed in his ability to change, the idea that Chr1st1an predicted all of this is laughable considering he said as recently as yesterday that "DD is playing the same as before". His steadfast refusal to believe that there was anything wrong with DD's game really makes his claims of "knew it all along" come across as the ultimate revisionist BS.

If you want to look at the last few years of posts, only pro-DD poster I remember that was consistent in saying that DD needed to change AND would change is Joey.

I have long thought (and said) that offering unwavering support for a hard-working, talented young player who has brought us to record-win seasons, while "repping" our hometown squad at the All Star game and on the US National team, was the right thing to do in principle.

As for calling Chr1st1ans remarks "laughable" and "revisionist BS" ... I think that's at best "unkind", very arguably "unfair", but at worst? ...

... Well, you're the "moderator". Maybe you should call that ...

[golden]

I still think that those are arbitrary numbers that only function to make DeMar look good. He's good offensively, but when you concoct a set of requirements that rules out players in MVP consideration(Draymond Green is somehow not elite offensively?), I tend to think it's a flawed requirement.

Sure, that standard is arbitrary. But it's a high standard. Think of it kind of like the baseball hall of fame. You can argue about guys who should be in Cooperstown, but got excluded. But you can't argue about anybody who is in there.

And again, it's only criteria for offense. DeMar is definitely sucking on defense and rarely fights over screens, likely conserving his energy for offense. Of course, Draymond Green is the better overall 2-way player. Hands down.

[slaw]

I still think we have to reserve any chest-thumping until the playoffs even though I could be doing the same; i.e., was calling DD elite offensively 2 seasons ago, based on the "golden" rule: USG>25 / ORTG>110 / MPG>30. LOL.

Simple reason we need to hold off is that, unlike sharpshooters, the main reason DeMar is able to maintain a high efficiency is based on a career high FT rate, which has at least 2 things out of his control: (1) his defender fouling him, (2) the refs calling it.

There's been a lot of talk about whether FT rate is sustainable in the playoffs. Since DD isn't quite yet one of the NBA glamour boys and Toronto isn't a glamour city, so I don't think we can guarantee that he's going to get the benefit of the whistle. More importantly, if the team we are facing can play DD tight without fouling, then he's going to have to make shots or make smart passes. He's been doing a better job at both this season, but make no mistake, his efficiency still comes largely from his FT rate. He's also been really, really good at getting guys up in the air with the pump fake, but that's probably the first thing that opposing players will try to resist doing in the playoffs. Especially when you play the same guy at least 4 times in a series.

He sustained it 2 years ago. Against Brooklyn, he went to the line 79 times in 7 games - well above his per game average in the regular season. Outside of Game 1 in that series, he was very, very good. Everyone focuses on the WSH series because of recency bias but the Raps got rolled so bad in that series I have a tough time drawing conclusions about any one player from it (other than that this team goes as Lowry goes but we already knew that).

[Wild-ling#1]

I still think we have to reserve any chest-thumping until the playoffs even though I could be doing the same; i.e., was calling DD elite offensively 2 seasons ago, based on the "golden" rule: USG>25 / ORTG>110 / MPG>30. LOL.

Simple reason we need to hold off is that, unlike sharpshooters, the main reason DeMar is able to maintain a high efficiency is based on a career high FT rate, which has at least 2 things out of his control: (1) his defender fouling him, (2) the refs calling it.

There's been a lot of talk about whether FT rate is sustainable in the playoffs. Since DD isn't quite yet one of the NBA glamour boys and Toronto isn't a glamour city, so I don't think we can guarantee that he's going to get the benefit of the whistle. More importantly, if the team we are facing can play DD tight without fouling, then he's going to have to make shots or make smart passes. He's been doing a better job at both this season, but make no mistake, his efficiency still comes largely from his FT rate. He's also been really, really good at getting guys up in the air with the pump fake, but that's probably the first thing that opposing players will try to resist doing in the playoffs. Especially when you play the same guy at least 4 times in a series.

Actually, I think his FG% is up too, no? Certainly this last month? Someone did do a stat analysis of foul calls during playoff action, though, suggesting that there are more fouls called during the playoffs (though there is a perception that foul-calls can be turned off - sort of like a faucet - at a most inopportune time ... )

I think you still have a practical point. But ... if refs can't call games consistently, that won't be DeMar's fault. And his improvement should lead to better play in the playoffs anyway. But match-ups matter. And there are other variables. If things don't go well again ...

(shudder ...)

[Barolt]

Sure, that standard is arbitrary. But it's a high standard. Think of it kind of like the baseball hall of fame. You can argue about guys who should be in Cooperstown, but got excluded. But you can't argue about anybody is.

And again, it's only criteria for offense. DeMar is definitely sucking on defense and rarely fights over screens, likely conserving his energy for offense. Of course, Draymond Green is the better overall 2-way player. Hands down.

The one I take issue with is the 25% usage. Usage+AssistRate would probably be more apt, as usage without assist rate leaves out a bunch of guys who are having a ridiculously high impact on the offensive end with high efficiency.

Chris Paul has only eclipsed 25% usage 3 times in his career, but who would argue that he's been elite offensively pretty much his entire career?

[slaw]

I still think that those are arbitrary numbers that only function to make DeMar look good. He's good offensively, but when you concoct a set of requirements that rules out players in MVP consideration(Draymond Green is somehow not elite offensively?), I tend to think it's a flawed requirement.

The ability to be a high usage player while playing a tonne of minutes is a unique skill set that translates in a variety of ways beyond the box score.... Very few players can do it over 82 games, which is why it is such a small list.

[Wild-ling#1]

He sustained it 2 years ago. Against Brooklyn, he went to the line 79 times in 7 games - well above his per game average in the regular season. Outside of Game 1 in that series, he was very, very good. Everyone focuses on the WSH series because of recency bias but the Raps got rolled so bad in that series I have a tough time drawing conclusions about any one player from it (other than that this team goes as Lowry goes but we already knew that).

+1

[Barolt]

The ability to be a high usage player while playing a tonne of minutes is a unique skill set that translates in a variety of ways beyond the box score.... Very few players can do it over 82 games, which is why it is such a small list.

I'm not saying DeMar isn't good, or even great offensively this year. I'm saying the list itself is flawed because it leaves out a bunch of guys who are elite offensively because of the arbitrary selection process. Kawhi Leonard has now dipped to 24.8% usage on the season, has he stopped being elite offensively despite his 123 Ortg and .319 WS/48?

[mcHAPPY]

It iwll be interesting to see what happens by February.

I strongly feel as though this has all been seen before with Demar...a month of unsustainable play....

It is a possibility.

Consistency over 82 has always been a weakness.

But I really hope he has turned the corner.

[Wild-ling#1]

The ability to be a high usage player while playing a tonne of minutes is a unique skill set that translates in a variety of ways beyond the box score.... Very few players can do it over 82 games, which is why it is such a small list.

This.

Demar's performance at high-usage has always been turned against him. Sure, I think his detractors were clearly correct as regards the desirability of his finding ways to boost his efficiency.

But he's good. And we hadn't been able to agree on that simple fact.

[Barolt]

This.

Demar's performance at high-usage has always been turned against him. Sure, I think his detractors were clearly correct as regards the desirability of his finding ways to boost his efficiency.

But he's good. And we hadn't been able to agree on that simple fact.

I'm not arguing that he's good. I'm arguing golden's very specific list.

DeMar is top 30 in PER, top 40 in WS/48, top 40 in OBPM, has a respectable TS%. He's having a good offensive season and is proving he's a top 30 NBA talent. Why can't that be enough? Why do we have to attempt to concoct a list that puts him with guys like LeBron, Kawhi, Durant? DeMar isn't in that category, but that doesn't mean he isn't good.

[Snooch]

It is a possibility.

Consistency over 82 has always been a weakness.

But I really hope he has turned the corner.

I do too, cause he trade value is certainly at its alltime high right now.

[golden]

I'm not saying DeMar isn't good, or even great offensively this year. I'm saying the list itself is flawed because it leaves out a bunch of guys who are elite offensively because of the arbitrary selection process. Kawhi Leonard has now dipped to 24.8% usage on the season, has he stopped being elite offensively despite his 123 Ortg and .319 WS/48?

You're actually confirming the point I was trying to make. Look at the names you are mentioning. They are all unquestionably elite, in your opinion. So, that means DD's production this season is elite, as was 2013-14. The baseball HoF debate.

Again, my arbitrary criteria is only for offensive elite-ness. In fact, I should actually bump up the USG to 28%, and even more guys would fall off. It's really, really difficult to maintain high offensive efficiency even for small increases in USG% above 20. At that point, the entire defense is focusing on you and only elite shot creators can continue to score efficiently. Chris Paul and Lowry can't do it, probably because they are too small and not athletic enough to get their shot off against bigger defenders. Which makes what Isaiah Thomas does even more amazing. And what Steph Curry is doing is not even believable.

[mcHAPPY]

I do too, cause he trade value is certainly at its alltime high right now.

I respect you for your consistency, Snooch!!

Personally I wouldn't mind this DeRozan. I wouldn't have spent so many years venting and complaining had he played this way for last 3-4 years... And by play this way I don't mean put up these numbers, I literally am talking style of play. The other issue is you need a big upgrade at PF with a much more consistent shooter than PP.