Everything Derozan

[Gambino]

He could but he would be a massive outlier in doing so. Perhaps you'd be more convincing if you provided past players as evidence of multi year later development rather than "don't doubt Demar".

No he wouldn't be a massive outlier. I'm not necessarily talking about a massive statistical production improvement. Idk how many times I need to say I'm talking about improvements in mentality and approach to the game.

As for something like three point shooting I pointed out an example several pages ago of Rip Hamilton. Who coincidentally is also a player who wasn't really considered a great individual defender but was part of some of the best defensive teams in league history.

[Gambino]

Because that same player also had a team that was better with him off the court, had one of the worst high-usage playoff runs of all-time, and couldn't carry the offense when the other All-Star on his team wasn't on the court, as the team got worse in those situations.

Remove the name DeMar DeRozan for a second.

Would you want a player who, in the playoffs, sees his usage increase as his assist rate and efficiency decrease, and refuses to defer to his teammates despite facing defenses designed to shut him personally down? Would you want to pay the max to a player who, in 7 years, has only had a positive on/off differential once?

You've already had it explained to you by DanH that there's a difference between a high impact and high production player.

If DeRozan was able to put up those numbers while also having insane on-off stats and other impact stats we're talking about a top 10 player in the league as opposed to top 30.

He's a pretty typical #2 option on a championship team. Not super high impact, but can handle a ton of usage and be highly productive with it, similar to the role Kyrie plays for the Cavs next to LeBron.

[Barolt]

No he wouldn't be a massive outlier. I'm not necessarily talking about a massive statistical production improvement. Idk how many times I need to say I'm talking about improvements in mentality and approach to the game.

As for something like three point shooting I pointed out an example several pages ago of Rip Hamilton. Who coincidentally is also a player who wasn't really considered a great individual defender but was part of some of the best defensive teams in league history.

And as I've pointed out before, DeMar isn't the midrange shooter Rip was.

Rip shot below 40% from 16-23ft 3 times in 13 seasons.

DeMar has shot over 40% from 16-23ft once in 7 seasons.

[Gambino]

And as I've pointed out before, DeMar isn't the midrange shooter Rip was.

Rip shot below 40% from 16-23ft 3 times in 13 seasons.

DeMar has shot over 40% from 16-23ft once in 7 seasons.

Rip also didn't take nearly as many highly contested shots from that area.

[Barolt]

Rip also didn't take nearly as many highly contested shots from that area.

How is this an argument in favor of DeMar, the fact that Rip made better decisions even at a younger age?

[Gambino]

How is this an argument in favor of DeMar, the fact that Rip made better decisions even at a younger age?

The fact that your percentage is going to be lower when taking more difficult shots.

Also prior to making his improvement from 3 and continuing to be good from there from 2005 onwards. Rip shot an average of 40.4% from that range which isn't a massive difference from the 37.8% of DeRozan.

I'm just giving an example of a player who improved from three. Rip was 29% prior to age 27 from 3 and 37% afterwards so it is possible and can happen. And also DeRozan doesn't even need to improve from 3 to be worth the max, that would just be icing on the cake.

[Axel]

No he wouldn't be a massive outlier. I'm not necessarily talking about a massive statistical production improvement. Idk how many times I need to say I'm talking about improvements in mentality and approach to the game.

As for something like three point shooting I pointed out an example several pages ago of Rip Hamilton. Who coincidentally is also a player who wasn't really considered a great individual defender but was part of some of the best defensive teams in league history.

Rip was already a better 3 point shooter than Demar at this point. So i don't think Rip being pair with one of the best defensive lineups in history as really being an improvement that you can hang your hat on and say, Demar can do that. Having better defensive teammates doesn't mean your a better defensive player.

[Gambino]

Rip was already a better 3 point shooter than Demar at this point. So i don't think Rip being pair with one of the best defensive lineups in history as really being an improvement that you can hang your hat on and say, Demar can do that. Having better defensive teammates doesn't mean your a better defensive player.

At age 26, Rip shot 30.5% from 3 on 1.5 attempts.
At age 26, DeRozan shot 33.8% from 3 on 1.8 attempts.

Rip was a 29% shooter from 3 through age 26, DeRozan is at 28%. What you just said is completely, 100% invalid and meaningless.

And why can't we build an elite defensive team? We played complete trash at power forward all year and were a borderline top 10 defense. Also we were without Carroll for most of the season.

[Barolt]

The fact that your percentage is going to be lower when taking more difficult shots.

Also prior to making his improvement from 3 and continuing to be good from there from 2005 onwards. Rip shot an average of 40.4% from that range which isn't a massive difference from the 37.8% of DeRozan.

I'm just giving an example of a player who improved from three. Rip was 29% prior to age 27 from 3 and 37% afterwards so it is possible and can happen. And also DeRozan doesn't even need to improve from 3 to be worth the max, that would just be icing on the cake.

Over Rip's first 7 seasons, he shot 41.2% from 16-23ft(27.1% of his shots), and 32.5% from 3(8.8% of his shots).

Over DeMar's first 7 seasons, he shot 37.8% from 16-23ft(32.3% of his shots), and 28.3% from 3(9.5% of his shots).

So DeMar shoots more from both ranges, and shoots a lot worse. 4% is a LARGE gap.

[MixxAOR]

[Gambino]

Over Rip's first 7 seasons, he shot 41.2% from 16-23ft(27.1% of his shots), and 32.5% from 3(8.8% of his shots).

Over DeMar's first 7 seasons, he shot 37.8% from 16-23ft(32.3% of his shots), and 28.3% from 3(9.5% of his shots).

So DeMar shoots more from both ranges, and shoots a lot worse. 4% is a LARGE gap.

Well that's nice that you included the year where Rip made a massive leap from 3 to 45.8%. The point was comparing the players BEFORE that leap was made. Nice try though.

[Axel]

At age 26, Rip shot 30.5% from 3 on 1.5 attempts.
At age 26, DeRozan shot 33.8% from 3 on 1.8 attempts.

Rip was a 29% shooter from 3 through age 26, DeRozan is at 28%. What you just said is completely, 100% invalid and meaningless.

And why can't we build an elite defensive team? We played complete trash at power forward all year and were a borderline top 10 defense. Also we were without Carroll for most of the season.

Look at their 3P%s over their first 6 seasons. Demar is well below every year.

Improving the team defence around Demar does not mean Demar has improved; which is the whole point of him plateauing, it's a personal thing not a team thing.

[yabadabayolo]

I do, its a forgone conclusion both want a new deal - had to opt-out to get it. https://t.co/SseVNVLYqC

— Steve Kyler (@stevekylerNBA) June 14, 2016

I think he might be the first ever raptor lifer

[Barolt]

Well that's nice that you included the year where Rip made a massive leap from 3 to 45.8%. The point was comparing the players BEFORE that leap was made. Nice try though.

Maybe the point should be comparing the players at similar points in their careers, rather than cherry-picking things that fit your narrative?

I compared the first 7 years of Rip's career to DeMar's first 7 years because... DeMar's played 7 seasons.

[Gambino]

Look at their 3P%s over their first 6 seasons. Demar is well below every year.

Improving the team defence around Demar does not mean Demar has improved; which is the whole point of him plateauing, it's a personal thing not a team thing.

How about looking at the average since that actually is logical since neither of them (Rip especially) had shown a significant trend with their 3pt shot prior to that. They're almost the same

And again this was just a side point. DeMar's value does not hinge on him becoming a good three point shooter (he's already very effective from the corners), it would just be nice if he did. And I was illustrating that it has been done before by another wing player who primarily did their damage from mid-range and inside.