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  • I mean, having the position that we should shop JV for good deals is kind of a null point, though, right? Like, we should trade DeMar if GSW will give us Curry for him, right? We should trade Ibaka for Anthony Davis, right? So, yeah, if we can get a good return for JV, great. But just like DeRozan and Ibaka, JV's value to the team is greater than whatever we could likely get in return, so what's the point in suggesting we look to trade him?
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • No it's not null. The reason I have the position is because I think Poeltl can replace and be better than JV in this system for us. Maybe not right this second but he can.

      And no it's not like trading DeMar for Curry. It's about keeping our eyes open in case a deal where we can get a similar caliber wing player for JV opens up. It doesn't mean we need to trade him right now or that we need to pray for some fantasy deal.

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      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
        No it's not null. The reason I have the position is because I think Poeltl can replace and be better than JV in this system for us. Maybe not right this second but he can.

        And no it's not like trading DeMar for Curry. It's about keeping our eyes open in case a deal where we can get a similar caliber wing player for JV opens up. It doesn't mean we need to trade him right now or that we need to pray for some fantasy deal.
        Masai will have is eyes open on any potential trade.. but I don't see any "wing" out there that would make us better by moving JV. You mentioned Middleton earlier.. but that would require a few dominoes falling (namely Monroe), and even then I doubt Milwaukee does that. You have any other targets in mind?

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        • DanH wrote: View Post
          Whoa, why is it redundant to have both? Poeltl is a young player who is high energy and probably best kept near 20 MPG. JV has been capped at around 28 MPG in his career, sometimes a little lower. Throw in injuries and you have both players getting plenty of time, and keeping Ibaka's minutes at C to specific situations where it is most beneficial to the team and least detrimental to his health. And at the same time, you are putting out 48 minutes of really, really good centre play, including top notch offensive rebounding from both rotation spots to help make up for the high volume three point shooting (and missing) that is being implemented.
          Yeah I have never really understood the fascination with trading a position of strength to make it a weakness and likely gain little elsewhere. Masai set a 3 year window on this team, so why not try to field the best team, even if it means going over the tax for two years.

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          • It's not making it a weakness. Poeltl is going to be better than JV.

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            • DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post
              Yeah I have never really understood the fascination with trading a position of strength to make it a weakness and likely gain little elsewhere. Masai set a 3 year window on this team, so why not try to field the best team, even if it means going over the tax for two years.
              The sticky bit is the tax. Is MLSE and/or Masai willing to pay it? I'm hoping they will but if the Raptors lose in the 2nd round again they may be not want to. At that point we'd have to trade CJ, Powell or JV just to get under the tax. And that would make our team worse.

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              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                It's not making it a weakness. Poeltl is going to be better than JV.
                But is BeBe better than JV? Status quo has JV and Poeltl sharing all the C minutes. Your alternative would have Poeltl play 25-28 minutes. What would you do for the other 20 minutes? I'd say you've created a weakness on the roster for at least 15 minutes a game (assuming you are playing in a matchup where Ibaka can get some minutes in at C).

                Heck, status quo should have Poeltl playing about 20 MPG as JV's backup, meaning your trading JV only has Poeltl replacing like 5-8 of those JV minutes, the rest of his minutes he's already playing.

                And Poeltl may well be better than JV at some point.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • planetmars wrote: View Post
                  The sticky bit is the tax. Is MLSE and/or Masai willing to pay it? I'm hoping they will but if the Raptors lose in the 2nd round again they may be not want to. At that point we'd have to trade CJ, Powell or JV just to get under the tax. And that would make our team worse.
                  Yeah, if MLSE cheaps out and wants to duck the tax, I could see JV being moved. I don't think that will happen, but I do think it's the most likely scenario for a JV trade.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    But is BeBe better than JV? Status quo has JV and Poeltl sharing all the C minutes. Your alternative would have Poeltl play 25-28 minutes. What would you do for the other 20 minutes? I'd say you've created a weakness on the roster for at least 15 minutes a game (assuming you are playing in a matchup where Ibaka can get some minutes in at C).

                    Heck, status quo should have Poeltl playing about 20 MPG as JV's backup, meaning your trading JV only has Poeltl replacing like 5-8 of those JV minutes, the rest of his minutes he's already playing.

                    And Poeltl may well be better than JV at some point.
                    Wrong.

                    Poeltl ~25mpg at the five. Split Ibaka equally between 4/5 roughly (like 20 at the 4, 15 at the 5).

                    That's 40 minutes, less than 10 for Bebe.

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                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      They are young - specifically the guys you don't think fit the style. Give them time.

                      Good enough place as any to post this


                      https://fansided.com/2017/10/27/raptors-new-bench-mob/
                      Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                        Wrong.

                        Poeltl ~25mpg at the five. Split Ibaka equally between 4/5 roughly (like 20 at the 4, 15 at the 5).

                        That's 40 minutes, less than 10 for Bebe.
                        Yeah, so you are running Ibaka at the 5 for 15 minutes every night regardless of matchups? That's a weakness. Does that also come with nearly 30 MPG of Siakam? Or are you running super small in Ibaka's C minutes, a look that has never been successful?
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • I don't think JV has trade value that is equivalent to his value to the team currently (ie: rebounding, inside scoring, etc...). I also don't understand the desire to trade JV for an equivalent wing player, given the glut of wing players (ie: DeRozan, Miles, Powell, Anunoby).

                          The core of this team has a short window to win, and I fail to understand the logic behind claims that JV trade would bring the team closer to championship contender status within that window (assuming Lowry, DeRozan and Ibaka form the core). If trading JV could return an upgrade over Miles or himself, I assume MU would have pulled the trigger already. Trading for other assets (ie: young players and/or 1st round draft picks) is fine, but doesn't help the team in the short-term (ie: the Lowry era).

                          More generally, this team's success is delicately built on a woefully imperfect roster. The starting PG is aging, slowing down, and seems to have lost his shot. The starting SG can neither shoot (from 3pt land) nor guard. The aforementioned starting C is a relic of the 90's NBA. As for the starting forwards, they'll both be north of 30 when their contracts end after the 19/20 season, so they aren't really in the long-term plans either.

                          Personally I would rather replace DeRozan than JV, given the likely return via trade for each Raptors asset, and the likely benefits to be realized in the next 2-3 seasons. With the new offensive emphasis on passing and team-first basketball, an increased reliance on 3pt shooting, and always important need for perimeter defense, I still think DeRozan's weaknesses represent a greater opportunity for improvement than JV's (partly because there aren't a lot of 'modern C' options around the league to be had). The team's dependence on DeRozan's scoring isn't nearly as high this year, and his scoring could easily be spread around the entire team, not just the replacement starting SG.

                          Of course I digress, and don't mean to turn the JV thread into a DeRozan thread, or make it JV-vs-DD, but the ongoing narrative that trading JV would automatically and immediately push the Raptors over a hump, just seems so tired.

                          The point of my ramblings aren't to push for a DeRozan trade, but rather to suggest that MU is married to this core (including JV) for the next 2-3 years, when it's very likely that the Raptors will undergo a significant rebuild/retooling in the post-Lowry era. I don't think tweaking around this core (including a JV or DD trade) would do much to substantially improve the roster in the short-term.
                          Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:36 PM.

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                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            Yeah, so you are running Ibaka at the 5 for 15 minutes every night regardless of matchups? That's a weakness. Does that also come with nearly 30 MPG of Siakam? Or are you running super small in Ibaka's C minutes, a look that has never been successful?
                            Anunoby will play bulk at the 4 spot. 20 mins for Ibaka, 28 shared between Anunoby and Siakam.

                            Not that complicated mate.

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                            • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                              Wrong.

                              Poeltl ~25mpg at the five. Split Ibaka equally between 4/5 roughly (like 20 at the 4, 15 at the 5).

                              That's 40 minutes, less than 10 for Bebe.
                              So..then Siakam at the 4 when Ibaka is at 5? Or more Bebe? Miles? Bruno? OG?

                              Also, Ibaka has never averaged more than 33 mpg - 5 seasons ago. So playing him roughly 35 per game for the entire regular season is probably a bad idea.

                              Edit: lol I see DanH beat me to it.

                              Anunoby will play bulk at the 4 spot. 20 mins for Ibaka, 28 shared between Anunoby and Siakam.
                              Does 28 minutes of OG/Siakam at the 4 produce more value than 28 minutes of JV at the 5?

                              Or another way, is the (pretty likely) dropoff from Ibaka at the 4 to OG/Siakam more than the alleged boost from a JV-less Poeltl/Ibaka 5?

                              Of course this doesn't take into account the theoretical very-good player that the Raptors would get in return from any JV trade.
                              Last edited by Mess; Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:45 PM.
                              Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                              • Replacing DeRozan is something I'd definitely entertain CRF, I'm not biased towards or against any player. If we could get a very good return for DeMar that improves the team I'd do that as well. I just think that DeMar being traded is a near impossibility while JV has clearly been shopped before. We also ALREADY have a replacement for JV while the same cannot be said for DeRozan.

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