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  • I will always hold Jordan to a special place because he is what made me a fan of the sport. I'm sure Lebron and Kobe before him did the same to the next generation of kids. It's easy to have fans of different guys because of that emotional reaction they give you. I'm sure it's the same in other sports. I bet there are guys pissed when someone ranks Gretzky over Orr. It's about what you know and what made you a fan.

    Wilt was apparently amazing. Yet I never saw him play. So I can't really comment. I saw some of Bird and Magic but they were older and didn't quite see them in their primes. And didn't follow when they were elite.

    Lebron deserves no disrespect though. He is super awesome. As were Kobe, Shaq, Duncan or KG. I'm a super fan of Kyle Lowry but I'm sure a majority of NBA fans can't stand the guy or thinks he's overrated/sucks.

    MJ, the basketball player, was an art form. It was ridiculous what he did on the court and was just jaw dropping. Half the time you knew he was going to do something incredible but when he did it, he still blew you away. There are guys still fans of Vince. MJ was 10x the player Vince was.. and just as jaw dropping. But he was also a winner, fierce competitor and everything you could ask for in a guy you enjoyed watching. MJ the human being was an asshole. But I'm not a friend of his nor do I know him personally so no big deal. Kyle Lowry is most likely an asshole too though but that won't stop me from being his fan.


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    • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
      its hilarious...looks like docu actually made things worse for the argument lol "Jordan played against plumbers"
      You'd have to be 12 to think that...off the top of my head: Bird, Barkley, Malone, Payton, Shaq, Stockton, Bad Boy Pistons, Hakeem, Alonzo, David Robinson, Drexler

      Tons of hall of famers and all time greats in Jordans era..Hell the Magic in 96 won 60 games, had Shaq and Penny, plus Brian Shaq and Grant, half the Lakers dynasty rotation was on that team...and Bulls swept them
      It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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      • KeonClark wrote: View Post

        You'd have to be 12 to think that...off the top of my head: Bird, Barkley, Malone, Payton, Shaq, Stockton, Bad Boy Pistons, Hakeem, Alonzo, David Robinson, Drexler

        Tons of hall of famers and all time greats in Jordans era..Hell the Magic in 96 won 60 games, had Shaq and Penny, plus Brian Shaq and Grant, half the Lakers dynasty rotation was on that team...and Bulls swept them
        yeah a lot of kids and none of them knows the history of league
        Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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        • planetmars wrote: View Post
          I will always hold Jordan to a special place because he is what made me a fan of the sport. I'm sure Lebron and Kobe before him did the same to the next generation of kids. It's easy to have fans of different guys because of that emotional reaction they give you. I'm sure it's the same in other sports. I bet there are guys pissed when someone ranks Gretzky over Orr. It's about what you know and what made you a fan.

          Wilt was apparently amazing. Yet I never saw him play. So I can't really comment. I saw some of Bird and Magic but they were older and didn't quite see them in their primes. And didn't follow when they were elite.

          Lebron deserves no disrespect though. He is super awesome. As were Kobe, Shaq, Duncan or KG. I'm a super fan of Kyle Lowry but I'm sure a majority of NBA fans can't stand the guy or thinks he's overrated/sucks.

          MJ, the basketball player, was an art form. It was ridiculous what he did on the court and was just jaw dropping. Half the time you knew he was going to do something incredible but when he did it, he still blew you away. There are guys still fans of Vince. MJ was 10x the player Vince was.. and just as jaw dropping. But he was also a winner, fierce competitor and everything you could ask for in a guy you enjoyed watching. MJ the human being was an asshole. But I'm not a friend of his nor do I know him personally so no big deal. Kyle Lowry is most likely an asshole too though but that won't stop me from being his fan.

          LeBron hurt his legacy by going to Miami and creating a super team. And then he went back to Cleveland and created another super team with Love and Kyrie. He's the one that organized that Love/Wiggins trade. And then he went to LA and I think he knew that the Lakers would find a way to trade for AD.

          LeBron really was the one that started the super team era. Kevin Durant took it to another level though. What KD did was worse. Joining a 73 win Warriors team, the same team that eliminated his OKC team the previous year. That was cheap I thought. I still question his competitive spirit.

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          • KeonClark wrote: View Post

            You'd have to be 12 to think that...off the top of my head: Bird, Barkley, Malone, Payton, Shaq, Stockton, Bad Boy Pistons, Hakeem, Alonzo, David Robinson, Drexler

            Tons of hall of famers and all time greats in Jordans era..Hell the Magic in 96 won 60 games, had Shaq and Penny, plus Brian Shaq and Grant, half the Lakers dynasty rotation was on that team...and Bulls swept them
            the level of competition the bulls faced in that era is something i think is seriously underrated. here's an excerpt from another great piece from the leadup to this series last week:

            What about against Utah in the Finals, when virtually the entire non-Jordan portion of the team was hobbled or dragging? That Jazz team was awesome, owners of the no. 1 offense in the league behind the vaunted Stockton-to-Malone pick-and-roll. Utah had won more than 60 games in back-to-back seasons, and went a torrid 31-5 after the All-Star break to take the no. 1 seed in a conference that featured three 60-win teams.

            The Jazz came back from down 2-1 to the Olajuwon-Barkley-Drexler Rockets to win in Round 1, then smoked the Duncan-Robinson Spurs in five, and swept Shaq’s Lakers to set up a championship rematch with the Bulls. Three of the four games Utah lost in the Finals were by two or fewer possessions. (The other one was an all-time 42-point ass-kicking, though, which might have assuaged any concerns.)
            and they weren't the best team they faced during that run since the 93 suns are near the top of the all-time would-be champions list. 97 jazz and 96 sonics also not slouches.

            fucking kids these days

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            • golden wrote: View Post

              Unfortunately, the "Krause pushed of Phil & MJ" story is great fodder for the public, but it's false. Jordan wanted out. Phil Jackson was the domino that set it in motion and gave Jordan a convenient excuse to get out. Jackson wanted out, too.

              https://www.espn.com/nba/columns/sto...sam&id=1936782
              Also relevant to this conversation... They won two championships after this:

              In an interview with ESPN 104.5 Baton Rouge's Off The Bench morning show on Monday, Tim Floyd said he was flown to Seattle to talk with Chicago Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf about replacing Phil Jackson after the 1995-96 season -- a year before "The Last Dance" picked up the saga of disbanding the team following the '96-97 campaign.

              Then-Bulls general manager Jerry Krause's frustrations with then-coach Phil Jackson were boiling over, and Krause wanted to start the rebuild a year early while he could get more value for players contracted through the '97-98 season.

              Floyd said the Bulls flew him to Seattle to meet with Reinsdorf and that the two walked around downtown Seattle discussing the job. He added that Reinsdorf explained that Krause wanted Jackson out, thought Scottie Pippen was breaking down physically and wanted the rebuild to start right away.

              "Anyhow, I told Jerry Reinsdorf that day," Floyd said on the radio show, "I don't think Jerry [Krause] understands that these guys are basically the Beatles. This is the most popular franchise of all time. I said, 'If I'm you, I would not do this. Not even the following year. Let it die a natural death because there are certain teams and players that you just don't break up. I think these guys have earned the right to let it die its own death.'"...

              "Jerry Reinsdorf asked me, 'Tim, would you tell Jerry Krause what you told me in downtown Seattle about next year?'" Floyd said. "I told Jerry Krause, and he said you don't understand, I can't do it. I don't want to work with Phil again. I said, 'Why don't you work downtown and let Phil work out of the other place [facility]?' Y'all just stay the hell away from each other because it's working."

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              • Just finished the first two parts.. really great documentary so far. Kudos to ESPN For doing this. Really brought back a lot of great memories. Pippen asking to be traded was huge when I remembered it when I was younger.. was thinking fuck.. the Bulls dynasty is over.

                I love that MJ went to NC to play in scrimmages and then surprising the team when he got back. The 14 minute restriction thing must have really pissed him off.

                Masai would have loved having MJ on his team. The two are so similar like that. Just fierce competitors that want to win.

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                • Sonny wrote: View Post

                  LeBron hurt his legacy by going to Miami and creating a super team. And then he went back to Cleveland and created another super team with Love and Kyrie. He's the one that organized that Love/Wiggins trade. And then he went to LA and I think he knew that the Lakers would find a way to trade for AD.

                  LeBron really was the one that started the super team era. Kevin Durant took it to another level though. What KD did was worse. Joining a 73 win Warriors team, the same team that eliminated his OKC team the previous year. That was cheap I thought. I still question his competitive spirit.
                  Sports are a bit like poetry. What we want as fans is a great, awesome story that flows well. MJ's story is actually pretty beautiful (assuming the Washington stuff never happened). He scored the winning bucket for NC as a freshman. Won a gold in the Olympics. Created a buzz in the NBA as a rookie... eventually winning 3 chips in a row. "Retiring". Winning another 3 chips in a row, stealing the ball and scoring on the last play to win it. Meanwhile never losing in the finals, and having 6 FMVP's to his name.

                  I mean it's a really beautiful story book with an awesome beginning and an awesome end. And it's all real life.

                  Lebron's book is up and down with a lot of crap surrounding it. But he's still a heck of a player. His story makes his legacy look weaker in comparison. But it's just because we're looking at it like one. I mean he's 35 and essentially a runner up to Giannis for MVP this year. Has his team in 1st in the West. Yeah they have AD but nobody else really. He beat the 73 win Warriors after being down 3-1. Kyrie is a good player but not really a winner (look at Boston last year as an example, or the Nets this year). Love is pretty much just as good as Horace Grant was, but worse defensively.

                  The "decision" really hurt his legacy more than anything.. but even then I'd take Pippen/Rodman over Wade/Bosh.

                  It's almost impossible to meet MJ's story line. It flows just too well. But he had a lot of help along the way. Without guys like Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Cartwright, Paxson, Kerr, etc.. he'd be a great player without a ring and his story would look pretty weak.


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                  • planetmars wrote: View Post

                    Sports are a bit like poetry. What we want as fans is a great, awesome story that flows well. MJ's story is actually pretty beautiful (assuming the Washington stuff never happened). He scored the winning bucket for NC as a freshman. Won a gold in the Olympics. Created a buzz in the NBA as a rookie... eventually winning 3 chips in a row. "Retiring". Winning another 3 chips in a row, stealing the ball and scoring on the last play to win it. Meanwhile never losing in the finals, and having 6 FMVP's to his name.

                    I mean it's a really beautiful story book with an awesome beginning and an awesome end. And it's all real life.

                    Lebron's book is up and down with a lot of crap surrounding it. But he's still a heck of a player. His story makes his legacy look weaker in comparison. But it's just because we're looking at it like one. I mean he's 35 and essentially a runner up to Giannis for MVP this year. Has his team in 1st in the West. Yeah they have AD but nobody else really. He beat the 73 win Warriors after being down 3-1. Kyrie is a good player but not really a winner (look at Boston last year as an example, or the Nets this year). Love is pretty much just as good as Horace Grant was, but worse defensively.

                    The "decision" really hurt his legacy more than anything.. but even then I'd take Pippen/Rodman over Wade/Bosh.

                    It's almost impossible to meet MJ's story line. It flows just too well. But he had a lot of help along the way. Without guys like Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Cartwright, Paxson, Kerr, etc.. he'd be a great player without a ring and his story would look pretty weak.

                    i don’t agree with this, aside from jordan having the better story part.

                    pippen was an all-time great swiss-army knife and all-around player who i find difficult to pin down how good he was historically, who also had a bum knee during the 97 run and a broken back during the 98 run.

                    rodman was old and nearing the end during his bulls years, but also still a child inside who was a strain on the locker room. he was also a one trick pony who sold out for his rebounding stats in a way that would make russell westbrook blush.

                    horace grant was really good and underrated probably still, agreed there, and kukoc was a great sixth man. the rest of the key role players like paxson, cartwright, harper and kerr are no different from the shane battier's or anthony parkers or udonis haslems or mike millers, etc that lebron has had. i would argue lebron has had the better cast of role players, although maybe that’s recency bias.

                    as far as secondary cast, wade might have been the second best player in the league the year before lebron went there, and bosh was top 10-15. ray allen was still an all-time sharp shooter in miami. kevin love was an all-nba caliber 26-12 player. kyrie is a mess as a leader but a hell of player that can clearly flourish if he isn’t the alpha in the locker room. AD is going to be an all-time player. i don’t think the secondary cast is close.

                    the main difference to me is that collectively the bulls were always greater than the sum of their parts, while many of lebron’s teams didn’t add up. and i’d attribute that mainly to the system, where the bulls employed a style that encouraged everyone touching the ball and feeling engaged (which steve kerr and phil jackson would argue tends to elevate the ceilings of teams), while lebron’s teams have relied on the ball dominance of one player “making the right play” over and over again, save some of miami’s offense in the latter years where they swung the ball around the perimeter more.

                    which is somewhat counter-intuitive to their reputations, with jordan thought of more as a one-on-one player that didn’t trust his teammates (at least pre-triangle), while lebron is though of as an unselfish playmaker who makes his teammates better.

                    (aside: kevin pelton did this analysis a few years ago that found lebron made most of his cleveland teammates worse on the second stint. i long suspected it for the all stars he’s played with, but was a bit surprised it extended to role players… i guess that’s what happens when you don’t touch the ball for many possessions and are suddenly expected to nail a 3).

                    the other big difference is that the bulls had the GOAT and most competitive player to ever play.

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                    • Sonny wrote: View Post
                      I dont want to spoil anything but I have to say, It’s hard to say that I feel bad for Pippen, since he still walked away with millions, but man......dude got screwed.

                      This doc is amazing. Two episodes in and I already think it might be in the running for best sports documentary series of all time. It exceeded my expectations.
                      Pippen scored big in endorsements, though.

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                      • Don't cry for Scottie Pippen, much bigger fish to fry out there

                        Pippen's $109.19 million career earnings were greater than Michael Jordan's $93.29 million, which even includes His Airness' salary during his 18-month baseball hiatus. Jordan made most of his NBA salary in his final two years with the Bulls, earning over $30 million each season.
                        It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                        • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                          Don't cry for Scottie Pippen, much bigger fish to fry out there
                          Yeah but Jordan was tripling his earnings in endorsements....that was one of the problems when lebron colluded with Wade and Bosh in Miami; bron agreed to take the same $20M as the other two since his difference in likely salary was really a footnote to his global revenue. His current deal with Nike (2015) could pay him as much as $1B

                          No wonder the brotherhood, social meeting and their personal goofy brand is more important to so many of them than actually winning.

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                          • G__Deane wrote: View Post

                            Yeah but Jordan was tripling his earnings in endorsements....that was one of the problems when lebron colluded with Wade and Bosh in Miami; bron agreed to take the same $20M as the other two since his difference in likely salary was really a footnote to his global revenue. His current deal with Nike (2015) could pay him as much as $1B

                            No wonder the brotherhood, social meeting and their personal goofy brand is more important to so many of them than actually winning.
                            Good for Jordan. He worked harder, took the bull by the horns (pardon the pun), and wanted that role. He relished it, handled it. Few can comfortably live like Jordan did. Michael Jackson couldn't do it, neither could Tyson, Tiger Woods...the life of the ridiculously famous and in demand is not for the faint of heart. He's a billionaire, but he can't go to the grocery store.

                            Pippen was never gonna be the face of a brand, he was the PERFECT second banana, did all the little things, enjoyed being out of the spotlight, and just balled. But like I said above the guy made $110 million dollars in his career. The documentary did a great job in painting a 100 millionaire all time great hall of famer as a tragic figure, lol
                            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                            • Watched it last night, some takeaways:

                              1. "Whenever they speak Michael Jordan, they should speak Scottie Pippen" Glad MJ said that. Pippen is the most underrated player of all time. Clowns like Shaq and Isiah Thomas and all these former Pistons players likes to take a shot at him like he's some scrub. In 1994, Pippen's one full season without Jordan, he finished third for MVP and the Bulls won two fewer games in the regular season. They would've reached the Finals that year if not for that phantom call against the Knicks.

                              2. I knew Jordan and Krause loathed each other but I didn't know it was that bad. Geez.

                              3. The Blazers passing on Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie at #2 overall because they already had Clyde Drexler was a great example why you ALWAYS go BPA. Also, Hakeem Olajuwon was so great that even to this day not a single person can complain he was drafted before Michael Jordan.

                              4. The Bulls would've won 2 more chips more if they kept the team together but Krause massive ego got in the way. It's also absurd to me that Reinsdorf allowed Krause to do whatever.
                              Last edited by The Great One; Tue Apr 21st, 2020, 12:41 PM.
                              Mamba Mentality

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                              • The whole hakeem/mj thing is interesting in that when Jordan went to play baseball between 3 peats, the rockets won their back to back titles. A lot of people use the narrative Houston was lucky that Jordan stepped away, but I'm not so sure they dont win at least one those titles even if he played. Would have been interesting to see though, I think the 94 and 95 rockets would have been a bigger challenger than any they faced
                                It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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