Everything Non-Raptors 23-24 Season

[Primer]

Stevens made back-to-back trips to ECF very early in his career. The first one was with: Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder & Avery Bradley starting a ton of minutes in the playoffs. That's trash talent. Heck, to top it off, they started washed Amir Johnson 77 games in that same regular season and somehow won 53 games. Yuck. And then Stevens made the ECF again the next season with Tatum as a rookie. Kyrie got hurt and missed the playoffs entirely. But no excuses... they still made it all the way to the ECF. Obviously, losing only to prime Lebron both times... which we all know quite well how that goes.

Like I keep saying... one criteria for evaluating a coach is how they overperform with lesser talent or when they are missing top talent, like Thibs missing Randle. We haven't seen Nurse do that yet. Nurse has won zero....yes, zero... legitimate playoff series in 5 seasons since Kawhi left. And he missed the playoffs entirely twice. How can you possibly call him elite?

You guys haven't been paying attention. I don't think Nurse is a bad coach. He's ..... OK. The problem is that you guys can't see through the fog of your "Nurse is elite" bias that if somebody doesn't bow down to Nurse, then they are "down on Nurse".

Back to back loser with a stacked squad.

How is he remotely better than Nurse?

He isn't. Nurse won a championship, Stevens never ever made the championship game let alone won one.

He bailed after a total dog shit season where he massively underperformed and went 500 after multiple years where he shit the bed in big games.

We can be objective about these things. Nurse won a freaking NBA title. Stevens had 8 years with unlimited money leading the most historic franchise in nba history and won Jack shit and had to quit because he was regressing.

Please please spin how Stevens with Tatum in his 4th year and Brown in his 5th year couldn't even break 500. I wanna hear the excuses. They're gonna be so sweet.

[golden]

Back to back loser with a stacked squad.

How is he remotely better than Nurse?

He isn't. Nurse won a championship, Stevens never ever made the championship game let alone won one.

He bailed after a total dog shit season where he massively underperformed and went 500 after multiple years where he shit the bed in big games.

We can be objective about these things. Nurse won a freaking NBA title. Stevens had 8 years with unlimited money leading the most historic franchise in nba history and won Jack shit and had to quit because he was regressing.

If losing is the ranking criteria: then Stevens didn’t go 5 straight seasons without winning a single playoff series. That’s losing at its worst.

If winning is the ranking criteria: then Vogel, Kerr, Carlisle, Ty Lue, Bud and Malone have better resumes than Nurse.

But you rank Nurse ahead of every coach except Pop & Spo, I believe. What’s your criteria & rationale, then? I’ve given you mine.

[Primer]

If losing is the ranking criteria: then Stevens didn’t go 5 straight seasons without winning a single playoff series. That’s losing at its worst.

If winning is the ranking criteria: then Vogel, Kerr, Carlisle, Ty Lue, Bud and Malone have better resumes than Nurse.

But you rank Nurse ahead of every coach except Pop & Spo, I believe. What’s your criteria & rationale, then? I’ve given you mine.

Winning is the criteria, but winning championships matters 10000X more than anything else. Stevens had a stacked squad and won nothing and became a 500 shit team and gave up and left coaching. Boston has every advatange known to man, if you can't succeed there you won't succeed. Nurse won a freaking title in Canada!

[golden]

Winning is the criteria, but winning championships matters 10000X more than anything else. Stevens had a stacked squad and won nothing and became a 500 shit team and gave up and left coaching. Boston has every advatange known to man, if you can't succeed there you won't succeed. Nurse won a freaking title in Canada!

At least we’re getting somewhere.

So, by your criteria: Nurse is clearly below Vogel, Bud, Ty Lue, Carlisle, Malone & Rivers. And way below Pop, Kerr & Spo.

But Nurse is ahead of: Stevens & Thibs… both of whom have beaten Nurse in head-to-head playoff series.

[LJ2]

I’m not down on Nurse at all. My point all along is that he’s not some genius, elite difference making coach that many will tell you. He’s…. ok.

Sure, if Morey gives him a stacked team, then he’ll get out of the first round. Well, duh. The time to show your coaching chops are when you’re at a talent deficit, like Thibs has done all year.

I don't think there are any genius coaches in the NBA that are doing something radical, but I'd say Nurse is one of the better coaches out there when he has the talent. Yes all coaches look good when they have a talented roster, but many underachieve. Like you rate Ty so highly despite him having one of the most stacked teams in the league for the last few years. What has he done to deserve your praise? And you were always down on Thibs when he was losing saying he's overrated like Doc, but now that Thibs is winning he's your example of a coach with a talent deficit getting the best out his team?

I don't think Nurse has any interest in team building so not a good fit on a young team, but I think if the talent is there he is capable of making some difference especially in those playoff scenarios when teams are matched up pretty evenly.

[golden]

I don't think there are any genius coaches in the NBA that are doing something radical, but I'd say Nurse is one of the better coaches out there when he has the talent. Yes all coaches look good when they have a talented roster, but many underachieve. Like you rate Ty so highly despite him having one of the most stacked teams in the league for the last few years. What has he done to deserve your praise? And you were always down on Thibs when he was losing saying he's overrated like Doc, but now that Thibs is winning he's your example of a coach with a talent deficit getting the best out his team?

I don't think Nurse has any interest in team building so not a good fit on a young team, but I think if the talent is there he is capable of making some difference especially in those playoff scenarios when teams are matched up pretty evenly.

I was always the opposite of "down on Thibs".... I think you're confusing me with Mixx, who absolutely despises him. Again, one way to evaluate a coach is when they lose talent, which makes it more evident that coaching is picking up the slack. After Nurse lost Kawhi, he hasn't won a legit playoff series. And without Embiid, Nurse has a worse coaching record than Jay Triano... and far worse than Doc Rivers. To me, those were red flags about Nurse's true impact, and it just revealed itself with a first round flameout. Nurse was soundly out-coached by Thibs (who nobody calls elite anymore).

The other criteria to look for is: can the coach get his players to sacrifice offense and play defense... night in/night out? Nurse was good at that after the chip, but all coaches have a shelf life, and guys start tuning out the coach and playing for their own contracts. Udoka was able to get his guys to play D with Sengun as his defensive anchor and Jalen Green as a perimeter defender - 2 previously very bad defenders. Yes, they added Brooks and FVV (who both lost significant time to injury), but defense is only as good as your weakest link, and Udoka had 2 in his starting lineup. Rockets ended up with the #9 NBA defense after finishing second-last the previous season. That's really impressive.

And if you go by Primer's championship + winning criteria, then: Malone, Kerr, Spo, Pop, Ty Lue, Bud, Carlisle,Vogel and Rivers are all ahead of Nurse, for now. Nurse was supposed to get the Sixers to the ECF, if not the Finals and he failed miserably against a team missing their all-star forward, a 5'10" PG as their star and a lesser coach.

What's your coach ranking?

[chris]

After Nurse lost Kawhi, he hasn't won a legit playoff series.

What's your coach ranking?

after nurse lost kawhi the team played at a 60-win pace with the 2nd best record in the league, and might have repeated if it weren't for covid and a bad matchup against the celtics (who they struggled with that year).

i mean if you want to talk about results relative to expectations

[golden]

after nurse lost kawhi the team played at a 60-win pace with the 2nd best record in the league, and might have repeated if it weren't for covid and a bad matchup against the celtics (who they struggled with that year).

i mean if you want to talk about results relative to expectations

That just reinforces how loaded the championship team was. Somehow everybody keeps forgetting that Nurse inherited a 59-win regular season team with young guys developed by Casey, on a upwards trajectory. Nurse was brought in to get teams over the hump in the playoffs (i.e. brilliant adjustments), just like he was this season in Philly... and failed.

[The Great One]

These hot takes are getting ridiculous every day. It's not like Dirk played in the 50s. He just retired 5 years ago. These guys already forgot how great Dirk was? C'mon man.

Nowitzki > Jokic

[MixxAOR]

[chris]

That just reinforces how loaded the championship team was. Somehow everybody keeps forgetting that Nurse inherited a 59-win regular season team with young guys developed by Casey, on a upwards trajectory. Nurse was brought in to get teams over the hump in the playoffs (i.e. brilliant adjustments), just like he was this season in Philly... and failed.

hanging the philly loss on nurse when they've always been insanely reliant on embiid and embiid was clearly limited in these playoffs (despite the minutes he played) is pretty ridiculous. they weren't healthy and ran into a great team (who were 20-3 w/ OG and 8-1 w/ OG + without randle). it's a shame they had to play each other in the first round because i liked both of those teams to get by boston if relatively healthy. (i know boston is perhaps the most heavily favored contender ever by most statistical models and m,any pundits but i just think they are way too reliant on the 3 ball and frontrunners who suck in close games, of which they will have to play a few inevitably in these playoffs. also fuck boston)

anyhow this whole convo is a bit silly and reductive to me to want to wade too far into it, i just think it's funny how you give bud full marks for winning a lot of games with an all-time talent and massively massively underachieving in all but one playoff run, while nurse gets no credit for coaching a team many pundits didn't even think would make the playoffs to the 2nd best record in the league but the celtics series was all his fault apparently.

also for the record i think stevens is an excellent coach and i can absolutely see him coming back to the sidelines, possibly even this summer after the celtics lose to the knicks in the next round.

[LJ2]

I was always the opposite of "down on Thibs".... I think you're confusing me with Mixx, who absolutely despises him. Again, one way to evaluate a coach is when they lose talent, which makes it more evident that coaching is picking up the slack. After Nurse lost Kawhi, he hasn't won a legit playoff series. And without Embiid, Nurse has a worse coaching record than Jay Triano... and far worse than Doc Rivers. To me, those were red flags about Nurse's true impact, and it just revealed itself with a first round flameout. Nurse was soundly out-coached by Thibs (who nobody calls elite anymore).

The other criteria to look for is: can the coach get his players to sacrifice offense and play defense... night in/night out? Nurse was good at that after the chip, but all coaches have a shelf life, and guys start tuning out the coach and playing for their own contracts. Udoka was able to get his guys to play D with Sengun as his defensive anchor and Jalen Green as a perimeter defender - 2 previously very bad defenders. Yes, they added Brooks and FVV (who both lost significant time to injury), but defense is only as good as your weakest link, and Udoka had 2 in his starting lineup. Rockets ended up with the #9 NBA defense after finishing second-last the previous season. That's really impressive.

And if you go by Primer's championship + winning criteria, then: Malone, Kerr, Spo, Pop, Ty Lue, Bud, Carlisle,Vogel and Rivers are all ahead of Nurse, for now. Nurse was supposed to get the Sixers to the ECF, if not the Finals and he failed miserably against a team missing their all-star forward, a 5'10" PG as their star and a lesser coach.

What's your coach ranking?

I have two main categories when I think about coaches. Are they there to develop players and instill a base for how the team builds it's system and identity like Casey/Darko or are they there to be a tactician like Nurse. I don't think Nurse could have done what Casey/Darko were brought in to do and I don't think Casey/Darko could do what Nurse could do. In terms of tacticians I think Nurse is up there with the head coaches you bring in to try and win a championship if you have the players he needs to win at a high level.

Some of the best development coaches in the league like Bud for example are lost when it comes to the playoffs and making adjustments.

I like the two way guys that can both develop and be tacticians like Spo or Udoka. I don't know much about Daigneault, but he's doing an impressive job considering how young his team is. I think this conversation started with me brining up Stevens who wasn't a HC for long but he did a good regular season job from what I recall.

I don't think winning a chip really says the full story, but Nurse did do it without a clear cut top 5 talent which is impressive. Kawhi was obviously great and finished 9th in MVP voting, but he missed a lot of games and the drop off in talent was pretty big after him. Nurse was able to get a lot out of the team and the year after when Kawhi left, if that is part of your criteria. I think he's pretty good in the right circumstances.

[LJ2]

These hot takes are getting ridiculous every day. It's not like Dirk played in the 50s. He just retired 5 years ago. These guys already forgot how great Dirk was? C'mon man.

Nowitzki > Jokic

Nowitzki was a great player. He's not the all around player which Jokic is though.

[golden]

hanging the philly loss on nurse when they've always been insanely reliant on embiid and embiid was clearly limited in these playoffs (despite the minutes he played) is pretty ridiculous. they weren't healthy and ran into a great team (who were 20-3 w/ OG and 8-1 w/ OG + without randle). it's a shame they had to play each other in the first round because i liked both of those teams to get by boston if relatively healthy. (i know boston is perhaps the most heavily favored contender ever by most statistical models and m,any pundits but i just think they are way too reliant on the 3 ball and frontrunners who suck in close games, of which they will have to play a few inevitably in these playoffs. also fuck boston)

anyhow this whole convo is a bit silly and reductive to me to want to wade too far into it, i just think it's funny how you give bud full marks for winning a lot of games with an all-time talent and massively massively underachieving in all but one playoff run, while nurse gets no credit for coaching a team many pundits didn't even think would make the playoffs to the 2nd best record in the league but the celtics series was all his fault apparently.

also for the record i think stevens is an excellent coach and i can absolutely see him coming back to the sidelines, possibly even this summer after the celtics lose to the knicks in the next round.

Once again, you've got it all wrong. I give Nurse a lot of credit. But I give Nurse similar (and lower) credit as guys like: Lue, Vogel, Rivers, Malone, Bud, Carlisle, etc... I'm just pointing out examples as to why Nurse shouldn't be consistently elevated above those guys, which he is. Like I said before.... just because I don't bow down to Nurse like you guys, it doesn't mean that I'm down on Nurse.

And speaking of pretty ridiculous.... it's the excuses & double standards for Nurse that are the most ridiculous thing. A "clearly limited" Embiid just put up": 33ppg/11rpg/6apg/1.2spg/1.5bpg. Basically the same as his regular season stats. Like what does Nurse need to Embiid to do: put up 50/25/12/5/5? And we'd all hail Nurse as a genius coach who is putting Embiid in a position to succeed, right? You can spin the narrative for coaches any which way you want, and nobody can really argue against it. But the best part is that while you talk about a "clearly limited Embiid", you simultaneously completely ignore a "completely limited Randle", leaving Brunson with no second option making it easy for Nurse's vaunted defense to get the ball out of his hands. Oh, wait... that never happend... Brunson just got stronger as the series wore on. You see, the double standard for evaluating Nurse is hilarious.... but you guys can't even see it. But I'm not hanging the loss on Nurse, either, because, unlike you guys, I didn't expect him to be a difference-maker, in the first place. Especially coaching vs. Thibs, who is not spoken of in the same hallowed tones as Nurse. Nurse is okay. Just... okay.

You seem to have a lot of strong opinions on the peanut gallery evaluating NBA coaches. Would be interesting to know where you rank Thibs, Stevens and all the other chip winning coaches I mentioned. And why. Heck, where does Casey rank?

[golden]

I have two main categories when I think about coaches. Are they there to develop players and instill a base for how the team builds it's system and identity like Casey/Darko or are they there to be a tactician like Nurse. I don't think Nurse could have done what Casey/Darko were brought in to do and I don't think Casey/Darko could do what Nurse could do. In terms of tacticians I think Nurse is up there with the head coaches you bring in to try and win a championship if you have the players he needs to win at a high level.

Some of the best development coaches in the league like Bud for example are lost when it comes to the playoffs and making adjustments.

I like the two way guys that can both develop and be tacticians like Spo or Udoka. I don't know much about Daigneault, but he's doing an impressive job considering how young his team is. I think this conversation started with me brining up Stevens who wasn't a HC for long but he did a good regular season job from what I recall.

I don't think winning a chip really says the full story, but Nurse did do it without a clear cut top 5 talent which is impressive. Kawhi was obviously great and finished 9th in MVP voting, but he missed a lot of games and the drop off in talent was pretty big after him. Nurse was able to get a lot out of the team and the year after when Kawhi left, if that is part of your criteria. I think he's pretty good in the right circumstances.

A lot to unpack there, LJ.

First off, Nurse had the benefit of 2 DPOYs (Gasol & Kawhi) + a former all-defense wing, Danny Green, at his disposal. He didn't have to contend with JV as his defensive anchor, getting played off the floor in the playoffs. Nurse was gifted an all-time defensive team, and that's the roster Casey wanted the whole time he was here. so you can't discount the possibility that Casey wins it all. Darko? I have no idea if he's a serious NBA coach or a meme generator. I do like the ball movement, but again, one of my key criterion is coaching defense, and Darko underperformed with OG/Precious/Jak/Scottie/Pascal and

Secondly, I think most of player development is on the player and his off-season coach (e.g. Pascal & Rico). Where head coaches come into play are giving minutes and the right role to get the player comfortable and contributing. That's where Casey's "role cards" were superior to Nurse's complicated everybody-does-everything with high IQ read/react schemes.

Thirdly, if you don't believe that Kawhi was a top 5 talent that season, I don't know what to tell you. Kawhi himself has the famous quote where he said he doesn't even care about the regular season ("regular season are just practices"). Not to mention that the Raps just had a 59-win regular seasons before Kawhi got here and Nurse was coach, and Casey got fired for it. Nurse's mandate was to win a chip... and with some injury luck... he delivered. And we will always appreciate him for that moment. But, sometimes that's all it is in sports.... a shining moment. Not sure why we continue to attribute so much eliteness to Nurse, 5 years later, when his playoff record is pretty terrible after 2019.

The last thing, as I mentioned above, was opposing team/player luck: first off... Nurse didn't have to go through prime Lebron, who just left the East. Stevens, Thibs & Bud all got vanquished by Lebron early in their coaching careers. Nurse also didn't have to face prime KD (except for the limited minutes where he was torching us).... and Klay, when it mattered. Basically, we took full advantage of a fatigued Warriors team trying to achieve the very difficult 3-peat.