There has never been a better time to rebuild than right now

[McRealistic]

Top talent comes to join other top talent....not a core of JV-Lowry-DD.

Your posts don't add up anymore. In one post, you claim people like DD's game so much that they will give us #4 in this draft.
In another one, you claim , Lowry is so respected in the league that we can get a top 8 picks in the draft. Next, you tell us, BigVal has all star written all over ...

Then you come and say no one wants this core !! I am confused !!

Looking at the other thread that I made :

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...it-really-mean

Even assuming moving DD and Lowry for picks from 5-10 in this draft, and all the picks that we have next year which probably NONE will be top 4 !! How can we seriously think we can build a core as good as DD+Lowry+BigVal from these picks within 3 years?

[McRealistic]

Sactown is the only thing I maybe see happening if they believe lowry is an upgrade over collison.

Which they probably don't since they think and want a non ball dominate PG to have the ball in the hands of their bigs ...

[Bandit]

Your posts don't add up anymore. In one post, you claim people like DD's game so much that they will give us #4 in this draft.
In another one, you claim , Lowry is so respected in the league that we can get a top 8 picks in the draft. Next, you tell us, BigVal has all star written all over ...

Then you come and say no one wants this core !! I am confused !!

Looking at the other thread that I made :

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...it-really-mean

Even assuming moving DD and Lowry for picks from 5-10 in this draft, and all the picks that we have next year which probably NONE will be top 4 !! How can we seriously think we can build a core as good as DD+Lowry+BigVal from these picks within 3 years?

That's a great question, and I think the big reasons are :

Rookie Contracts : Even players who aren't as good as our current core may have higher trade value do to better talent per dollar. Rookies who can contribute have good value, rookies who have potential have even better value. Plus we have better financial flexibility and control on our roster.

Our own Draft picks : If we can't create a team better than what we have, then assuming we got fair value for our trades (at the time) then we should be at par in terms of value. We will actually come out ahead since our own picks will improve in standing down the road.

Fit: Even if we don't get players who are as good as our current core, it wouldn't be hard to get players that fit better than our current core. That could provide a better overall production level then what we have now.

Alot hangs on trusting the GM to make smart draft picks, and then to evaluate that talent appropriately. He needs to make smart trades and get good value out of everything until he has what he wants or enough to get what he wants.

[Bear]

I do not see any validity with any of the top 10 2015 draft picks being traded for Demar / Lowry straight up.

NYK is not going to waste their cap space on either DD / Lowry and will not trade their pick for them. Denver is on the same boat as the Raptors and more than likely looking to acquire picks. Detroit does not need any more chuckers and still have to live with Jennings. Sactown is the only thing I maybe see happening if they believe lowry is an upgrade over collison.

Detroit has already talked about options of trading their pick for. And they want consistant shooting, not chucking, big difference, that is why someone like Ppat would look good there for that pick. Not a homerun, but a he helps them compete.

NYK need to appease melo right now and are greatly lacking at every position, demar works there and his efficiency could rise playing off of a guy like Melo, and is a "name" add that keeps the city happy.

[Bear]

Which they probably don't since they think and want a non ball dominate PG to have the ball in the hands of their bigs ...

there is a connection there with Rudy as wel

[Shantz]

Your posts don't add up anymore. In one post, you claim people like DD's game so much that they will give us #4 in this draft.
In another one, you claim , Lowry is so respected in the league that we can get a top 8 picks in the draft. Next, you tell us, BigVal has all star written all over ...

Then you come and say no one wants this core !! I am confused !!

Looking at the other thread that I made :

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...it-really-mean

Even assuming moving DD and Lowry for picks from 5-10 in this draft, and all the picks that we have next year which probably NONE will be top 4 !! How can we seriously think we can build a core as good as DD+Lowry+BigVal from these picks within 3 years?

Not all teams are equal and in the same place. The same player can mean different things to different teams. It depends on roster structure, coaching, current aspirations, etc. DeRozan could be more valued to New York than Calderon/pick 4 due to their desire to compete right away, while Raptors could value the 4th pick more if they are willing to take a step back.

[mcHAPPY]

Your posts don't add up anymore. In one post, you claim people like DD's game so much that they will give us #4 in this draft.
In another one, you claim , Lowry is so respected in the league that we can get a top 8 picks in the draft. Next, you tell us, BigVal has all star written all over ...

Then you come and say no one wants this core !! I am confused !!

Looking at the other thread that I made :

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...it-really-mean

Even assuming moving DD and Lowry for picks from 5-10 in this draft, and all the picks that we have next year which probably NONE will be top 4 !! How can we seriously think we can build a core as good as DD+Lowry+BigVal from these picks within 3 years?

There is a huge difference between trading for a player and getting a player to sign as a free agent.

There is also a huge difference between trading for lesser talent than you already have and expecting greater talent to join lesser talent.


To answer your final question: who is talking 3 years? That is Colangelo-speak. That is why this team is as handicapped as it currently is. Also, there is no guarantee whatever happens is as good as DD/Lowry/JV. But again, mediocrity is now what we strive for?

[mengtot]

So if the worst teams in the league won't build with the Raptors core what does that say for Toronto's core?


BTW, any trade would have to work with the CBA. Can't just trade DD/Lowry for the picks. So the real question when referencing cap space is would NY prefer to build with one of DD/Lowry or Calderon/#4?

Raptors core was never great. With the Raptors making those financial commitments to Lowry / GV / PP last summer, I just don't see the harm of just playing it out and waiting until the 2016 trade deadline / offseason to begin any rebuild. In the 2016 offseason, the Raptors would only have Lowry / PP on contract for 2016/2017 in addition to 5 rookie deals.

BTW I do know the CBA which is why I don't see any trades with NY. NY would build with Calderon/#4. They will not want chuckers to play with Melo and trade picks to get them. Only young asset they have is Tim Jr. who I think they'd rather have than DD who will not be able to spread the floor or play defense. Lowry would eat into their cap space to acquire him. Both would likely require Calderon thrown in to make the deal happen so NY would still have money to spend on free agents. I think the real question is if you were NY and looking for a guard, would you rather have DD / Lowry or #4 (Mudiay / Russell)?

[magoon]

Your posts don't add up anymore. In one post, you claim people like DD's game so much that they will give us #4 in this draft.
In another one, you claim , Lowry is so respected in the league that we can get a top 8 picks in the draft. Next, you tell us, BigVal has all star written all over ...

Then you come and say no one wants this core !! I am confused !!

Looking at the other thread that I made :

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...it-really-mean

Even assuming moving DD and Lowry for picks from 5-10 in this draft, and all the picks that we have next year which probably NONE will be top 4 !! How can we seriously think we can build a core as good as DD+Lowry+BigVal from these picks within 3 years?

I think you're confusing two premises, which are:

1.) Kyle, DeMar and JV are all talented players and they have value across the league
and
2.) Kyle, DeMar and JV, as a core, are deeply flawed, both because none of the three are good enough to be a Best Player On A Contending Team (which I will suggest we hereafter dub BPOCT) and because their individual playstyles do not complement one another

For example: lots of people like DeMar, and they should. He's an unselfish player, tends to stay healthy, has ridiculous work ethic, has decent (and getting better) floor vision, is at least an average defender (and tries hard), is excellent at drawing fouls and is good at driving to the hoop. He's a poor man's D-Wade, and a poor man's D-Wade has value - IF your team can compensate at other positions for DeMar's lack of three-point shooting, which has become nearly an essential factor at the SG position. If your point guard, small forward and power forward can all contribute perimeter and long-distance shooting, DeMar is an excellent option. If they can't, then, well, you're the Raptors last year.

All of this is to say: certain teams will favour certain types of players more than others. Phil Jackson doesn't think three-point shooting is as vital as much of the league does, for the example, and DeMar is a prototypical triangle player, so the Knicks might favour trading for DeMar more than other teams might do.

[mengtot]

Detroit has already talked about options of trading their pick for. And they want consistant shooting, not chucking, big difference, that is why someone like Ppat would look good there for that pick. Not a homerun, but a he helps them compete.

NYK need to appease melo right now and are greatly lacking at every position, demar works there and his efficiency could rise playing off of a guy like Melo, and is a "name" add that keeps the city happy.

Are you saying Det would trade their #8 pick for Ppat???

Phil Jackson is worried too much about appeasing Melo right now. DD will definitely not help with that and NY fans would riot if the team trades the #4 pick for him.

[mengtot]

I think you're confusing two premises, which are:

1.) Kyle, DeMar and JV are all talented players and they have value across the league
and
2.) Kyle, DeMar and JV, as a core, are deeply flawed, both because none of the three are good enough to be a Best Player On A Contending Team (which I will suggest we hereafter dub BPOCT) and because their individual playstyles do not complement one another

For example: lots of people like DeMar, and they should. He's an unselfish player, tends to stay healthy, has ridiculous work ethic, has decent (and getting better) floor vision, is at least an average defender (and tries hard), is excellent at drawing fouls and is good at driving to the hoop. He's a poor man's D-Wade, and a poor man's D-Wade has value - IF your team can compensate at other positions for DeMar's lack of three-point shooting, which has become nearly an essential factor at the SG position. If your point guard, small forward and power forward can all contribute perimeter and long-distance shooting, DeMar is an excellent option. If they can't, then, well, you're the Raptors last year.

All of this is to say: certain teams will favour certain types of players more than others. Phil Jackson doesn't think three-point shooting is as vital as much of the league does, for the example, and DeMar is a prototypical triangle player, so the Knicks might favour trading for DeMar more than other teams might do.

DD is not a prototypical triangle player. The triangle offense requires players to be able to space the floor or post up and pass out. DD does not have the aforementioned skillset and he will not be able to be the primary option over Melo to play the role Jordan / Kobe / Pippen played for their respective teams in the offense.

[Primer]

Are you saying Det would trade their #8 pick for Ppat???

Phil Jackson is worried too much about appeasing Melo right now. DD will definitely not help with that and NY fans would riot if the team trades the #4 pick for him.

I believe the exact opposite. That Melo would love playing with Derozan, finally a second all star to play with in NY. Also, their fanbase is distraught over dropping to the 4th pick, I think they'd be very happy with trading it for a popular all star in Derozan, a parade, not a riot. They want to get better quickly, and Demar makes them better quickly. A lot quicker than adding someone like Mudiay, who probably won't start to play at a elite level until 3 years in, if ever. I'd assume they toss in Jose dogshit contract with the pick, so they don't even lose cap space by making the trade. Use the rest of the cap to lure a prime free agent to NY to play with 2 all stars in Melo and Derozan, make their own big 3. That would be very easy to sell the fanbase and Melo on.

[mcHAPPY]

Raptors core was never great. With the Raptors making those financial commitments to Lowry / GV / PP last summer, I just don't see the harm of just playing it out and waiting until the 2016 trade deadline / offseason to begin any rebuild. In the 2016 offseason, the Raptors would only have Lowry / PP on contract for 2016/2017 in addition to 5 rookie deals.

BTW I do know the CBA which is why I don't see any trades with NY. NY would build with Calderon/#4. They will not want chuckers to play with Melo and trade picks to get them. Only young asset they have is Tim Jr. who I think they'd rather have than DD who will not be able to spread the floor or play defense. Lowry would eat into their cap space to acquire him. Both would likely require Calderon thrown in to make the deal happen so NY would still have money to spend on free agents. I think the real question is if you were NY and looking for a guard, would you rather have DD / Lowry or #4 (Mudiay / Russell)?

The harm is based on the assumption you can get assets back for Lowry and DeRozan in a trade. If you can't get anything of value for them, then no, there is no harm.


re: bold
That isn't straight forward. I know what I would rather. But is NY trying to build a contender NOW with an aging Melo? If they are, who is better? Two guys who have been All-Stars very recently or a virtual unknown that might never amount to anything?

[MixxAOR]

Carmelo, DD and Lowry core is not a contender. Knicks would be fools to do that.

[mcHAPPY]

Carmelo, DD and Lowry core is not a contender. Knicks would be fools to do that.

Carmelo and one of those players is what you'd be starting with.

Then happens in free agency this year with their $28M in cap space?

Then what happens next year when they add enough salary for another max player?


I imagine that is the train of thought PJax would be taking.