Measuring the D...

[DanH]

It should also be noted that the numbers on that (pick and roll defence) are kind of sketchy. How much of that is based on the big man defence, and how much on the secondary help? Most schemes, the big man has to help on the ball handler, and the smaller defender is in charge of blocking the passing lane to the rolling big as much as possible while a secondary (usually weak side) defender is in charge of bumping the roller or stripping the ball on a pass. The big man does take some responsibility for getting back to his man quickly, and successfully sealing the ball handler. There's a lot of noise there.

And worse than that, these samples are ridiculously small. 30-odd possessions? Keep in mind PnR data includes pick and pops, so a couple missed jumpers or made jumpers one way or the other is the difference between bottom 10 on that list and roughly 40th.

[Scraptor]

Neither are very significant, but combined they show Love is not a bad defender. He's average based on on/off, the only metric you guys could find that says he's not a good defender. Every single other metric says he's an average to good defender.

His man shoots 5.0% better against him than against other defenders.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/d...ER_NAME&dir=-1

I've already posted P&R defense, which shows him near the bottom.

Post defense he's 22nd worst out of 105 players with at least 1 possession defended per game.
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/pos...ort=Percentile

Those three things put together don't really show him as an average to good defender.

[golden]

The issue I have with P&R defense stats though is it's really not up to just 1 guy. Pick and rolls are like the epitome of requiring a full team effort to stop defensively. For example. If the coach's gameplan is to have both guys step up on the ball-handler (i.e. the bigman hedging). That means it's a third player's responsibility to make that rotation and stop the roller from getting an easy basket. In a situation like that, do the point scored count against the big involved in the pick and roll? Or the one who was supposed to make the rotation?

Basically that's what SVG was saying and added that a lot of times the PnR is simply used as a mis-direction or starting point to get your offense into the real play you want to run. So, it comes down to the nerd recording the data to make a basketball judgment on what was "supposed to happen". SVG took issue that those guys aren't qualified to make those judgments.

Like your example, a big might look like he defended the dummy PnR perfectly and he gets a Synergy brownie point for that, but leaves the backdoor open - which is exactly what the defense wanted him to do.

[Primer]

His man shoots 5.0% better against him than against other defenders.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/d...ER_NAME&dir=-1

I've already posted P&R defense, which shows him near the bottom.

Post defense he's 22nd worst out of 105 players with at least 1 possession defended per game.
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/pos...ort=Percentile

Those three things put together don't really show him as an average to good defender.

I think the other posters did a pretty good job pointing out the flaws in that PnR metric. Am I to believe that Hassan Whiteside is a terrible defender?

Whiteside has a 93 DRtg, which is fantastic. Every time I've watched him he looks like a very good defender. I think DRtg does the best job of showing overall defensive effectiveness, and passes the smell test a lot better than that PnR stat, not to mention it's basketball, not pick and roll ball, there is a whole lot more to the game than defending the roll man in pick and roll.

[tDotted]

I think the other posters did a pretty good job pointing out the flaws in that PnR metric. Am I to believe that Hassan Whiteside is a terrible defender?

Whiteside has a 93 DRtg, which is fantastic. Every time I've watched him he looks like a very good defender. I think DRtg does the best job of showing overall defensive effectiveness, and passes the smell test a lot better than that PnR stat, not to mention it's basketball, not pick and roll ball, there is a whole lot more to the game than defending the roll man in pick and roll.

Tony Parker currently holds a lower DRTG than Draymond Green.

I think it's safe to say that individual DRTG is heavily dependent on team performance.. and shouldn't be used as a means to evaluate individual ability.

*Edit: To drive my point home. Here are the top 25 players in terms of DRTG. There are currently 14 Spurs players on that list. If Matt Bonner had met the minutes restriction I set for that list (100 MP. He is at 96 MP right now), that would mean the entire Spurs 15-man roster would rank among the top 25 in the league. Yeah.

[Primer]

Tony Parker currently holds a lower DRTG than Draymond Green.

I think it's safe to say that individual DRTG is heavily dependent on team performance.. and shouldn't be used as the only means to evaluate individual ability.

Draymond Green is a 99, Tony Parker is a 98, so basically the same. San Antonio plays excellent defense, so not sure how you could say Parker is a bad defender (I'm guessing you aren't). Excellent team defense can absolutely move a player up the metric, but that follows logic doesn't it (if a player plays heavy minutes on a team with excellent defense you can logically say he's playing good defense, the proof is in the pudding)? The best defenders are still at the top of the metric regardless what team they're on. For instance, Whiteside has the 3rd best DRtg in the league, and no other Miami players are close. Same goes for Deandre Jordan and Andre Drummond. Mahinmi and George are the only highly rated Pacers, because they're the best defenders on the Pacers. DRtg passes the smell test in flying colors. I wouldn't use it to say Player A is a better defender than Player B because he's rated 1 point better, but it's pretty effective at pointing out who is playing good defense and who is who is playing bad defense. You won't find any good defenders at the bottom of the list, and vice versa.

[Barolt]

The Spurs might have the best defense ever. So it's not surprising that their players have good Drtg.

[golden]

Tony Parker currently holds a lower DRTG than Draymond Green.

I think it's safe to say that individual DRTG is heavily dependent on team performance.. and shouldn't be used as a means to evaluate individual ability.

*Edit: To drive my point home. Here are the top 25 players in terms of DRTG. There are currently 14 Spurs players on that list. If Matt Bonner had met the minutes restriction I set for that list (100 MP. He is at 96 MP right now), that would mean the entire Spurs 15-man roster would rank among the top 25 in the league. Yeah.

That's right, you have to remove the effect of the team. All stats that try to quantify individual defense suck pretty bad, because it's a really hard thing to do. DRPM seems a bit better.....

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

[Chr1s1anL]

Anyone know where 2pat and BB rank on this PnR stats. I find it kind of worrisome that our two starters are so bad at guarding the pick and roll.

[Primer]

Tony Parker currently holds a lower DRTG than Draymond Green.

I think it's safe to say that individual DRTG is heavily dependent on team performance.. and shouldn't be used as a means to evaluate individual ability.

*Edit: To drive my point home. Here are the top 25 players in terms of DRTG. There are currently 14 Spurs players on that list. If Matt Bonner had met the minutes restriction I set for that list (100 MP. He is at 96 MP right now), that would mean the entire Spurs 15-man roster would rank among the top 25 in the league. Yeah.

100 minutes over half a season is way way way too small a sample size. Try 800 or 900 minutes. 800 minutes is only 19 minutes per game. Anyone who plays less than that isn't playing enough for you to get a reliable number, and that goes for all advanced stats, you can't look at guys who barely play.

As noted by Barolt, the Spurs have one of the best defenses in the history of the NBA right now, so to say anyone on that team is playing bad defense is just wrong.

[Barolt]

Anyone know where 2pat and BB rank on this PnR stats. I find it kind of worrisome that our two starters are so bad at guarding the pick and roll.

Pick and roll defense is a lot more complicated than that though. Our problems in defending them start with the guards, and then trickle down. If the guard badly defends the pick and roll, you end up with your big man essentially in a defensive 2 on 1 situation. I find the pick and roll defense stat flawed because it doesn't break down how the offense scores against each guy.

Is it pick and pops where the big man fails to step out on the screener? Does the guard get stuck on the screen and the big guy fails to pick up the ball handler? Does the guard switch when the team's plan is to go under the screen?

[Primer]

That's right, you have to remove the effect of the team. All stats that try to quantify individual defense suck pretty bad, because it's a really hard thing to do. DRPM seems a bit better.....

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

Kevin Love is 56th in the league in DRPM, so very good there too. (He has been a DRPM positive for all 3 seasons available on ESPN).

Also, the rankings by DRPM and DRtg are pretty damn similar.

[Chr1s1anL]

Pick and roll defense is a lot more complicated than that though. Our problems in defending them start with the guards, and then trickle down. If the guard badly defends the pick and roll, you end up with your big man essentially in a defensive 2 on 1 situation. I find the pick and roll defense stat flawed because it doesn't break down how the offense scores against each guy.

Is it pick and pops where the big man fails to step out on the screener? Does the guard get stuck on the screen and the big guy fails to pick up the ball handler? Does the guard switch when the team's plan is to go under the screen?

Its a lot more simple for JV cause he has only one responsibility in the PnR now. That's to fall back protect the rim. The other bigs on the team have more responsibilities. They hedge and trap depending on where the PnR is taking place. You didn't answer my question either.

[Barolt]

Its a lot more simple for JV cause he has only one responsibility in the PnR now. That's to fall back protect the rim. The other bigs on the team have more responsibilities. They hedge and trap depending on where the PnR is taking place. You didn't answer my question either.

I'm looking, haven't found that stat yet.

[KeonClark]

Kevin Love is 56th in the league in DRPM, so very good there too.

Also, the rankings by DRPM and DRtg are pretty damn similar.

Still fighting the good fight eh primer? I can embed from my phone, so I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lqmt6f2PYzQ

Here's tyson chandler saying in a halftime interview "kevin love can't play defense"

U can scan the Internet all day for analytical Numbers for something you can't quantify, I'll trust chandler and many other coaches and scouts and yknw, watching the games.