Masai Ujiri said "We need a culture reset"

[Chr1s1anL]

I don't think that's true. Lowry has shown repeatedly that he can carry the offense himself and make others around him better. In fact, many times Lowry/the team's offense will be better off statistically without DD on the court. DeMar's true value to Lowry comes over the course of a whole NBA season not a handful of playoff games.


I think it's completely fair to pin it on that. DeMar's a guy with a huge usage rate that provides no spacing, limited playmaking, and creates almost 90% of his own offence himself playing at a very slow and deliberate pace (completely unlike the quick Tony Parker). He's the ultimate "ball stopper" that I don't think the league has ever seen before. He's able to carve up regular season defenses but against more stout postseason opposition the offense becomes incredibly stagnant as he's less capable of creating defensive breakdowns.


I used to be firmly in this boat a month ago but putting more thought into it, he desperately needs a 3 ball. As JClaw pointed out, he often catches the ball above the 3pt line and pretty much waits for a defender to close out. The whole offensive possession turned from a routine open catch and shoot 3 to yet another DeRozan ISO.

Something has to change.

This change isn't going to happen by having DeMar handle the ball even more than he already does. Every year that his usage has increased, the team's assists per game ranking in the league has also dropped as well. We've gone from 20th in the league in 2013 to dead last in 2017. I know you didn't outright say he should handle the ball more, but that's kind of what Casey's implying with his point guard comments.

DeMar needs to learn how to play off the ball and operate within an offensive system. His impact offensively is minuscule for someone who scores as much as he does and that's in large part due to his stagnant style of play. I don't think he can quickly become the playmaker the team needs him to be in order to have the kind of impact that he could have by just shooting 36%+ on 3-4 attempts from deep.

Lowry is not capable of shouldering a huge scoring load. As shown by his playoffs as a raptor. A rookie held him to 14 ppg in the first round.... What makes Lowry really good is his intangibles that he brings to the game. He is truely elite at that. I wouldn't call him a scorer. He just takes what the D gives him. Picks his spots. The problem is that D doesn't give up much in the playoffs. Kyrie is a scorer, can get you a bucket at any time.

That's why Lowry need a high volume scorer to play off of. Just like Deebo needs Lowry to spread the floor to give him more room to operate. As well as making all the little plays that is not in Deebo's make up yet. Both guys need eachother. Seperate these guys are All-stars but, together they elevate eachothers games to star status.

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[golden]

Lowry is not capable of shouldering a huge scoring load. As shown by his playoffs as a raptor. A rookie held him to 14 ppg in the first round.... What makes Lowry really good is his intangibles that he brings to the game. He is truely elite at that. I wouldn't call him a scorer. He just takes what the D gives him. Picks his spots. The problem is that D doesn't give up much in the playoffs. Kyrie is a scorer, can get you a bucket at any time.

That's why Lowry need a high volume scorer to play off of. Just like Deebo needs Lowry to spread the floor to give him more room to operate. As well as making all the little plays that is not in Deebo's make up yet. Both guys need eachother. Seperate these guys are All-stars but, together they elevate eachothers games to star status.

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That KL/DD complement each other and have great chemistry on and off the court is well documented and obvious.

The debate here is that some would argue that KL/DD only seem to elevate each other's games not the rest of the team, and that DeMar's flaws, i.e., (1) lack of 3-pt shot, (2) poor passing/decision making & (3) poor defense, impact roster construction far more negatively than Lowry's flaws in the modern NBA. Is that even a debate?

The second issue here is about the style that makes both of them look so great in the regular season, simply does not translate to the playoffs - which Masai called out publicly at his end of season presser.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I think it's pretty odd to say that Lowry's play drops off a cliff during the playoffs. His shooting does. He's still the only reason the Raptors win a single game in the playoffs. Even with JV's superhuman efforts in 2016, the team would have been swept in the 1st round without Lowry being simply amazing even when he struggles with his shot and the occasionally moronic and always easy to prep for offensive system they play. Which of course is the real and obvious reason why both guards struggle in the playoffs, not some convoluted domino effect stemming from Lowry mysteriously disappearing for no reason.

So, I mean, if we are accepting that Kyrie and DeMar are second tier stars who don't really drive their teams' success (as we obviously should be), then sure, DeMar's shooting is perfectly explainable. Of course, it just further highlights that DeMar doesn't help the team win all that much even when his performance is good by his standards, since by your own logic, he can only accomplish that by playing off of the superior player who is really determining whether the team wins or not. Colour me therefore unimpressed with even his rare successful playoff performance.

It's not odd at all, it's obvious. He doesn't look like the same player at all. Can't shoot, he looks very hesitant with the ball and regularly gets outperformed by players he usually sons in the regular season. It's only on Raptors fan boards where I see people trying to argue that his play isn't significantly worse in the playoffs. The only year it wasn't, was the first time we went there in this era against Brooklyn.

Your last paragraph genuinely doesn't make much sense, not sure what you're trying to state there.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I'd like to second this.

It was a very weird sense of logic.

How is it a weird sense of logic?

If Lowry is the driver/engine of the team, and the engine is sputtering or breaking down, that's going to put make things more difficult for all the other parts of the squad, including the high-usage volume scorer (DeMar).

It's not rocket science, people just don't want to apply the same logic in multiple situations because it doesn't fit their narrative. If Kyrie is only so good in the playoffs because LeBron dominates and takes a ton of pressure off of him while making things easier for him and the rest of the team, it follows that Lowry (who's in the LeBron "role" here of the main impact stats guy) underperforming would have the same negative effect on DeMar's game (and the play of others, in fact most of our players tend to play a lot worse in the playoffs than the regular season).

Lowry is the #1 problem with our playoff drop-offs. Idk if it's injuries (I'm really starting to not buy that excuse) or just inability to handle pressure well, but if he's the leader/driver/franchise guy and he doesn't show up that's a big problem.

If the old Spurs were doing terribly in the playoffs and Duncan was playing like crap, people wouldn't start pointing the finger blaming Parker for the losses. It's the best player who's meant to shoulder that burden. Yes it's a team sport, but it's a team sport where your number one guy is supposed to have a huge impact on your performances.

Forgot to add: Maybe you're surprised by the logic because people here are partial to players and like to take sides. Every player on this team is flawed and has massive issues, but it seems everyone here is either camp Lowry, camp JV, camp DeMar or camp Casey or camp whatever. Lowry doesn't fucking show up in the playoffs. DeMar forces his game way too much when Lowry isn't performing and generally is a difficult player to gameplan with because of his limitations defensively and shooting wise. JV doesn't defend any fucking near well enough for a starting center and doesn't get/demonstrate enough offensive versatility or usage/contribution to make up for it. Casey takes way too long to make adjustments and runs a way too simplistic/predictable offense and is overrated defensively (he isn't even a defensive coach, he's a slow pace coach). It's why I wanted to rebuild. With that not happening, I hoped we'd really go for it and try to add even more to the core, instead we're focused on cutting costs.

[LJ2]

That KL/DD complement each other and have great chemistry on and off the court is well documented and obvious.

The debate here is that some would argue that KL/DD only seem to elevate each other's games not the rest of the team, and that DeMar's flaws, i.e., (1) lack of 3-pt shot, (2) poor passing/decision making & (3) poor defense, impact roster construction far more negatively than Lowry's flaws in the modern NBA. Is that even a debate?

The second issue here is about the style that makes both of them look so great in the regular season, simply does not translate to the playoffs - which Masai called out publicly at his end of season presser.

Sounds like you're saying we should move Lowry to SG and trade Demar for Kyrie. Sign me up.

While I would be perfectly happy with another great regular season and run through the playoffs until the inevitable loss to the Cav's, I would be equally happy to see us try something...different. I would wager having two PG's on the floor would help move the ball and increase our assist numbers which have been awful. We'd have two legit 3pt. threats on the floor in our starting line up. Lowry has decent size as a guard to guard bigger SG's so hopefully that won't be a big draw back.

Anyone have numbers for when Lowry plays off the ball and isn't the primary ball handler?

[golden]

Sounds like you're saying we should move Lowry to SG and trade Demar for Kyrie. Sign me up.

While I would be perfectly happy with another great regular season and run through the playoffs until the inevitable loss to the Cav's, I would be equally happy to see us try something...different. I would wager having two PG's on the floor would help move the ball and increase our assist numbers which have been awful. We'd have two legit 3pt. threats on the floor in our starting line up. Lowry has decent size as a guard to guard bigger SG's so hopefully that won't be a big draw back.

Anyone have numbers for when Lowry plays off the ball and isn't the primary ball handler?

No, that would be the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA. Lowry is already small as a PG, and his defense has been slipping badly over the past few seasons. Kyrie couldn't stop a snowball from rolling uphill. I'm not sure how great that backcourt would be for ball movement either - possibly a lot of the same "your turn/my turn" ISO offense we already have.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

No, that would be the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA. Lowry is already small as a PG, and his defense has been slipping badly over the past few seasons. Kyrie couldn't stop a snowball from rolling uphill. I'm not sure how great that backcourt would be for ball movement either - possibly a lot of the same "your turn/my turn" ISO offense we already have.

Lol Lowry, Kyrie and then Powell at the 3 like most people here want.

6'0, 6'2, 6'4. We would get eaten alive defensively and bullied.

[LJ2]

True, we would be at a disadvantage on that end, but probably not as big as some would think. Really it's just with KL against whomever he will be guarding at SG. How much worse than Demar defending at SG would he be? Not a lot of great SG's out there these days. And I for one am not hoping for Powell to start at SF.

The advantage would be at the other end of the floor where we would have two of the best 3pt shooters in the East on the same team. It's not Steph and Klay, but you create a huge perimeter scoring threat which other teams have to account for.

[Chr1s1anL]

That KL/DD complement each other and have great chemistry on and off the court is well documented and obvious.

The debate here is that some would argue that KL/DD only seem to elevate each other's games not the rest of the team, and that DeMar's flaws, i.e., (1) lack of 3-pt shot, (2) poor passing/decision making & (3) poor defense, impact roster construction far more negatively than Lowry's flaws in the modern NBA. Is that even a debate?

The second issue here is about the style that makes both of them look so great in the regular season, simply does not translate to the playoffs - which Masai called out publicly at his end of season presser.

Neither player can elevate their teammates play but, its all Deebo's fault?

Also this offence produces multiple open looks for these so called role players. NBA players should be able to make open set shots. Teams double Lowry/Deebo because they know the role players can't consistently make open shots.

Yes Masai made a comment on the the offence and than pretty much took it back a month later. Kept the 3 headed monster to this offense. While getting rid of those role players that can't be elevated.

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[tDotted]

How is it a weird sense of logic?

If Lowry is the driver/engine of the team, and the engine is sputtering or breaking down, that's going to put make things more difficult for all the other parts of the squad, including the high-usage volume scorer (DeMar).

It's not rocket science, people just don't want to apply the same logic in multiple situations because it doesn't fit their narrative. If Kyrie is only so good in the playoffs because LeBron dominates and takes a ton of pressure off of him while making things easier for him and the rest of the team, it follows that Lowry (who's in the LeBron "role" here of the main impact stats guy) underperforming would have the same negative effect on DeMar's game (and the play of others, in fact most of our players tend to play a lot worse in the playoffs than the regular season).

Lowry is the #1 problem with our playoff drop-offs. Idk if it's injuries (I'm really starting to not buy that excuse) or just inability to handle pressure well, but if he's the leader/driver/franchise guy and he doesn't show up that's a big problem.

If the old Spurs were doing terribly in the playoffs and Duncan was playing like crap, people wouldn't start pointing the finger blaming Parker for the losses. It's the best player who's meant to shoulder that burden. Yes it's a team sport, but it's a team sport where your number one guy is supposed to have a huge impact on your performances.

Forgot to add: Maybe you're surprised by the logic because people here are partial to players and like to take sides. Every player on this team is flawed and has massive issues, but it seems everyone here is either camp Lowry, camp JV, camp DeMar or camp Casey or camp whatever. Lowry doesn't fucking show up in the playoffs. DeMar forces his game way too much when Lowry isn't performing and generally is a difficult player to gameplan with because of his limitations defensively and shooting wise. JV doesn't defend any fucking near well enough for a starting center and doesn't get/demonstrate enough offensive versatility or usage/contribution to make up for it. Casey takes way too long to make adjustments and runs a way too simplistic/predictable offense and is overrated defensively (he isn't even a defensive coach, he's a slow pace coach). It's why I wanted to rebuild. With that not happening, I hoped we'd really go for it and try to add even more to the core, instead we're focused on cutting costs.

If Kyrie/Parker has bad performances in the playoffs, nobody in their right fucking mind would blame LeBron/Duncan for that because the results would be far far worse if they weren't playing (they wouldn't be in the playoffs in the first place anyway). Same thing applies here. DeMar without Lowry is an absolute shit show so how in the world is it Lowry's fault for DeRozan playing poorly??

"Stats????" Well, I'm glad you asked. In the 2017 playoffs; DeRozan with Lowry produced a 103.4 ORTG. The ORTG with DeRozan and without Lowry dropped 12.1 points to an absolutely dismal 91.3 ORTG. Obviously the problem was Lowry holding back DeRozan from greatness. Yeah.

Lowry on the other hand operated just fine without DeRozan's ball stopping in the playoffs. In fact, the team was great. 103.4 with them together but a very nice 110.0 ORTG with DD on the pine but KL leading the way. That would rank 5th among all playoff teams in offense; just a smidge behind the Spurs.

Since 2014, Lowry's on/off net rating with the team in the playoffs is a whopping +18. He's got this stupid choker label even though the team routinely falls apart without him out on the court in any given game. Meanwhile DeRozan's never once been a positive statistically in any playoff run. Now, why is that? That's what needs to be examined here.

[MixxAOR]

Lowry can elevate his teammates play you can just look at Raptors bench squads. Lowry + bench was automatically strong line up. Derozan doesn't really have that complimentary player skill. He needs the ball in his hand. So Lowry spaces the floor for Demar. ( I think Demar passes the ball to Lowry the most.) or they run PG-SG Pick and Roll where Lowry screens for Derozan and when they get a switch Demar abuses the PG.

[Chr1s1anL]

If Kyrie/Parker has bad performances in the playoffs, nobody in their right fucking mind would blame LeBron/Duncan for that because the results would be far far worse if they weren't playing (they wouldn't be in the playoffs in the first place anyway). Same thing applies here. DeMar without Lowry is an absolute shit show so how in the world is it Lowry's fault for DeRozan playing poorly??

"Stats????" Well, I'm glad you asked. In the 2017 playoffs; DeRozan with Lowry produced a 103.4 ORTG. The ORTG with DeRozan and without Lowry dropped 12.1 points to an absolutely dismal 91.3 ORTG. Obviously the problem was Lowry holding back DeRozan from greatness. Yeah.

Lowry on the other hand operated just fine without DeRozan's ball stopping in the playoffs. In fact, the team was great. 103.4 with them together but a very nice 110.0 ORTG with DD on the pine but KL leading the way. That would rank 5th among all playoff teams in offense; just a smidge behind the Spurs.

Since 2014, Lowry's on/off net rating with the team in the playoffs is a whopping +18. He's got this stupid choker label even though the team routinely falls apart without him out on the court in any given game. Meanwhile DeRozan's never once been a positive statistically in any playoff run. Now, why is that? That's what needs to be examined here.

I didn't know 15-7 was considered shit. The intangibles are great but, sometimes you need to just put the ball in basket. Lowry struggled with that the last 3 years in the playoffs. It's not even that he misses shots it's that he loses all his confidence. Starts passing up lays up and shit. The opponents sense that fear. Which than gives them more confidence knowing that we got thier best players scared.

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[tDotted]

I didn't know 15-7 was considered shit. The intangibles are great but, sometimes you need to just put the ball in basket. Lowry struggled with that the last 3 years in the playoffs. It's not even that he misses shots it's that he loses all his confidence. Starts passing up lays up and shit. The opponents sense that fear. Which than gives them more confidence knowing that we got thier best players scared.

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Playoffs my man, playoffs.

I don't think it's Lowry losing confidence as much as it is just him deferring to the most frequent shot taker on the team. Anyway like I made clear in the previous post, Lowry isn't the problem.

[Chr1s1anL]

Playoffs my man, playoffs.

I don't think it's Lowry losing confidence as much as it is just him deferring to the most frequent shot taker on the team. Anyway like I made clear in the previous post, Lowry isn't the problem.

Why do you give Lowry a pass for his playoffs performances but, not Deebo? If anything Deebo was our best player this playoffs. I'm not saying Lowry is the problem but, he has to show up in the playoffs.

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[DanH]

Why do you give Lowry a pass for his playoffs performances but, not Deebo? If anything Deebo was our best player this playoffs. I'm not saying Lowry is the problem but, he has to show up in the playoffs.

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Both players are crippled by the Raptors' offensive system in the playoffs.

The difference, as ever, between the two, is regardless of their scoring outputs, Lowry finds a way to help the team win no matter what (this is evidenced by the dramatic fall-off when he hits the bench).