Would you rather Lin or Bayless?

[special1]

I'm the last person you'll find here drawing conclusions from Bargnani's 13 games.

As for Dragic, I'm torn on him. There's a lot to like in his game, but he hasn't proven himself as an everyday starter, and overpaying for his services may not be Colangelo's best move. I would feel more comfortable with a player like Jennings or Holiday as our PG of the future.

Fair enough.... with regards to Jennings...check this article out... there's not much difference between Bayless and Jennings except bayless shoots a bit better than Jennings. Keep in mind that Jennings starts and we've seen Bayless put up similar numbers when he starts.

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=390894

Why pay 8-10 million or more for Jennings when you can keep Bayless for less....

[Papa Burgundy]

Fair enough.... with regards to Jennings...check this article out... there's not much difference between Bayless and Jennings except bayless shoots a bit better than Jennings. Keep in mind that Jennings starts and we've seen Bayless put up similar numbers when he starts.

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=390894

Why pay 8-10 million or more for Jennings when you can keep Bayless for less....

Jennings would be getting paid less than Demar for the next 2 seasons, at least. Or did you mean Goran on an FA deal?

[Papa Burgundy]

Fair to say that Jennings - Bayless - and Dragic: all have skills AND concerns ... and are young enough to intrigue.

[Bendit]

@ Nilanka

Was your Bayless comparison to Jarrett Jack a personal one or one made by one of the many pundits out there?

Draftexpress's draft time postulation was Monta Ellis at the high end and Lou Williams at the lower. Oddly enough neither are true PGs either. Regardless of this raging debate (based mostly on skills evaluation) my own thoughts about opting for Bayless is his superior confidence in demeanor which probably rubs off not too well on some of his mates and here on the board. I make this observation in relationship to the Lin comparision. Next season if Lin remains in NY will be telling in terms of how he will handle the Melo/Stoudemire relationship on0off the court. Will he be able to push back and run the point without having to mentally cater especially to Melo's wants? I believe that if he had the Bayless personality, he would have a better go at it. Again not to make a direct comparision I see JB a poor man's version of Westbrook...a combo guard playing pg, stubborn, confident, willing to take the big shot, likes crunch time and rubs mates like Durant the wrong way at times. I think he needs another year here to prove "finally" whether he is a serviceable starting pg or a off the bench sparker. Paradoxically Lin too needs another year to prove somewhat the same except I think his personality may hinder (or is it Melo's presence!) as it did this past.

[jimmie]

"Bayless puts up good numbers when he starts."

Small sample size, plus he won't be starting and he really sucks off the bench as a backup PG. He should go somewhere that he will get that chance to start. Then we'll all know what his ceiling is.

If this was a case of deciding whether to keep Bayless as the 2nd PG (and possibly 3rd when they trade for or draft the future PG), and if he wasn't due a 4M+ qualifying offer, there might be an argument. Or, if he'd already proven himself capable off the bench, there might even be an argument to offer him the QO and keep him at 2 years/8M while they wait for someone better to come along.

He's had 4 years in the league. With that time, and at his age, he should have proven he deserves $4M a year. He hasn't. With all the flexibility Toronto has this summer to make significant moves, I'd call slotting 5M for Bayless very low on the list, and given the timing involved (ie. the QO would lock that money up while they wait to see if someone else bids), I can't see Colangelo doing that.

[Nilanka]

The Jarrett Jack comparison was off the top of my head (not based on any pundits' thoughts).

Bayless does have swagger, but we haven't seen any evidence that it bothers his teammates (yet).

As for Lin, I think it's a lose-lose situation for him. Even if he was a more outspoken personality, I don't see how his voice would ever be given more weight than Melo's (who the team essentially gutted to obtain). Everyone in the basketball world knew that Melo in NY was a bad idea....except for Dolan. And as long as Dolan still owns the team, I can see Melo getting the star treatment.

[mcHAPPY]

"Bayless puts up good numbers when he starts."

Small sample size, plus he won't be starting and he really sucks off the bench as a backup PG. He should go somewhere that he will get that chance to start. Then we'll all know what his ceiling is.

If this was a case of deciding whether to keep Bayless as the 2nd PG (and possibly 3rd when they trade for or draft the future PG), and if he wasn't due a 4M+ qualifying offer, there might be an argument. Or, if he'd already proven himself capable off the bench, there might even be an argument to offer him the QO and keep him at 2 years/8M while they wait for someone better to come along.

He's had 4 years in the league. With that time, and at his age, he should have proven he deserves $4M a year. He hasn't. With all the flexibility Toronto has this summer to make significant moves, I'd call slotting 5M for Bayless very low on the list, and given the timing involved (ie. the QO would lock that money up while they wait to see if someone else bids), I can't see Colangelo doing that.

Agreed on the 'sucking' off the bench. It is starter or bust for Bayless. An interesting scenario would be a big starting PG (Deron Williams, Kirk Hinrich, etc.) who could guard the 2-guard on D but play PG on O allowing Bayless to do the opposite. Not sure how probable but just a thought.

First bold sentence: the counter argument around here always seems to be Billups. Personally, I consider a Billups situation an anomaly much like the best players in the game (Duncan, Kobe, LBJ, etc.) except probably more rare.

Second bold sentence: unless they make a trade prior to July 1st. I hope they do add significant quality salary prior to July 1st (quality could mean a bad contract to get a higher talent on a good or rookie contract or it could mean taking on an overpaid but good player). If they are at the salary cap on July 1st, they have their MLE and Barbosa TPE to execute sign and trade in free agency - and Bayless' QO has no effect on either.

[special1]

@ Nilanka

Was your Bayless comparison to Jarrett Jack a personal one or one made by one of the many pundits out there?

Draftexpress's draft time postulation was Monta Ellis at the high end and Lou Williams at the lower. Oddly enough neither are true PGs either. Regardless of this raging debate (based mostly on skills evaluation) my own thoughts about opting for Bayless is his superior confidence in demeanor which probably rubs off not too well on some of his mates and here on the board. I make this observation in relationship to the Lin comparision. Next season if Lin remains in NY will be telling in terms of how he will handle the Melo/Stoudemire relationship on0off the court. Will he be able to push back and run the point without having to mentally cater especially to Melo's wants? I believe that if he had the Bayless personality, he would have a better go at it. Again not to make a direct comparision I see JB a poor man's version of Westbrook...a combo guard playing pg, stubborn, confident, willing to take the big shot, likes crunch time and rubs mates like Durant the wrong way at times. I think he needs another year here to prove "finally" whether he is a serviceable starting pg or a off the bench sparker. Paradoxically Lin too needs another year to prove somewhat the same except I think his personality may hinder (or is it Melo's presence!) as it did this past.

+1

[CalgaryRapsFan]

@ Nilanka

Was your Bayless comparison to Jarrett Jack a personal one or one made by one of the many pundits out there?

Draftexpress's draft time postulation was Monta Ellis at the high end and Lou Williams at the lower. Oddly enough neither are true PGs either. Regardless of this raging debate (based mostly on skills evaluation) my own thoughts about opting for Bayless is his superior confidence in demeanor which probably rubs off not too well on some of his mates and here on the board. I make this observation in relationship to the Lin comparision. Next season if Lin remains in NY will be telling in terms of how he will handle the Melo/Stoudemire relationship on0off the court. Will he be able to push back and run the point without having to mentally cater especially to Melo's wants? I believe that if he had the Bayless personality, he would have a better go at it. Again not to make a direct comparision I see JB a poor man's version of Westbrook...a combo guard playing pg, stubborn, confident, willing to take the big shot, likes crunch time and rubs mates like Durant the wrong way at times. I think he needs another year here to prove "finally" whether he is a serviceable starting pg or a off the bench sparker. Paradoxically Lin too needs another year to prove somewhat the same except I think his personality may hinder (or is it Melo's presence!) as it did this past.

Ironically these are some of the main reasons I dislike Bayless and would be happy to see him leave town. When he isn't starting and isn't thrust into "the man" role, he pouts like a three year old. When he starts and is scoring, he looks like he thinks he's god's gift to basketball. This is why he never cuts it as a backup, because he seems to approach the game with a completely different attitude (you can see the disgust of being a backup all over his face and body language) and the stats back up the claim that he is not nearly as effective as a backup. It's as though he only puts forth 100% effort as a starter, so that you have to start him, or else you'll be wasting his apparent skill.

For me, a truly good player with good character would bring the 100% effort whether they start or not. This was the case during the whole Ford/Calderon argument a few seasons ago, when Calderon was equally effective and happy whether he started or came off the bench. Ford pouted the way Bayless does now and was a completely different player coming off the bench, so Calderon volunteered to come off the bench for the benefit of the TEAM. I hated Ford, despite his skill, for all the same reasons I hate Bayless; he is a me-first player that only gives 100% when he starts, because he's is so arrogant and puts himself ahead of the team.

[special1]

"Bayless puts up good numbers when he starts."

Small sample size, plus he won't be starting and he really sucks off the bench as a backup PG. He should go somewhere that he will get that chance to start. Then we'll all know what his ceiling is.

If this was a case of deciding whether to keep Bayless as the 2nd PG (and possibly 3rd when they trade for or draft the future PG), and if he wasn't due a 4M+ qualifying offer, there might be an argument. Or, if he'd already proven himself capable off the bench, there might even be an argument to offer him the QO and keep him at 2 years/8M while they wait for someone better to come along.

He's had 4 years in the league. With that time, and at his age, he should have proven he deserves $4M a year. He hasn't. With all the flexibility Toronto has this summer to make significant moves, I'd call slotting 5M for Bayless very low on the list, and given the timing involved (ie. the QO would lock that money up while they wait to see if someone else bids), I can't see Colangelo doing that.

I agree.... if your not bringing back Bayless to give him a shot at the starting PG....then let him go elsewhere. We've heard over and over again that the raptors are looking for a point guard.... we know that Jose's contract ends after the coming season....if Jose is not 100% apart of the future, why not give Jerryd a shot at the starting role?? At least we can stop having these debates and let his actions speak.

Would Westbrook or Jennings be as effective coming off the bench with inconsistent minutes??? Almost sounds ridiculous to ask the question..... i do recall A LOT of people saying Westbrook was not a true point guard (some still say).... i'll tell you this... I would take him on my team ANYDAY ..and i was saying this from the moment he came in the league

[ebrian]

I think that $6M for Lin is way more worthwhile than $4M for Bayless, that is assuming Bayless will take that little.

For $2M more you're getting a starting NBA point guard. The caption in Chilsholm's article for Bayless' stats explains the entire story:

"Now, here are the numbers Bayless posted as a starter in his two years with Toronto:" (which end up being what Lin had in 1 season, and would have been less if Lin didn't get hurt)

He has had plenty of opportunity to start over higher paid players and incumbents. We are rebuilding so the team is constantly giving nobodies (Anderson, Uzoh) a chance to play. Yet he has not. If he was worthy of it, he would be starting full time by now. He is not. I'd rather pay $6-7M for a starter than $4M for a backup.

[mcHAPPY]

I think that $6M for Lin is way more worthwhile than $4M for Bayless, that is assuming Bayless will take that little.

For $2M more you're getting a starting NBA point guard. The caption in Chilsholm's article for Bayless' stats explains the entire story:

"Now, here are the numbers Bayless posted as a starter in his two years with Toronto:" (which end up being what Lin had in 1 season, and would have been less if Lin didn't get hurt)

He has had plenty of opportunity to start over higher paid players and incumbents. We are rebuilding so the team is constantly giving nobodies (Anderson, Uzoh) a chance to play. Yet he has not. If he was worthy of it, he would be starting full time by now. He is not. I'd rather pay $6-7M for a starter than $4M for a backup.

The Knicks do not have anyone on their roster comparable to Calderon.

[special1]

Ironically these are some of the main reasons I dislike Bayless and would be happy to see him leave town. When he isn't starting and isn't thrust into "the man" role, he pouts like a three year old. When he starts and is scoring, he looks like he thinks he's god's gift to basketball. This is why he never cuts it as a backup, because he seems to approach the game with a completely different attitude (you can see the disgust of being a backup all over his face and body language) and the stats back up the claim that he is not nearly as effective as a backup. It's as though he only puts forth 100% effort as a starter, so that you have to start him, or else you'll be wasting his apparent skill.

For me, a truly good player with good character would bring the 100% effort whether they start or not. This was the case during the whole Ford/Calderon argument a few seasons ago, when Calderon was equally effective and happy whether he started or came off the bench. Ford pouted the way Bayless does now and was a completely different player coming off the bench, so Calderon volunteered to come off the bench for the benefit of the TEAM. I hated Ford, despite his skill, for all the same reasons I hate Bayless; he is a me-first player that only gives 100% when he starts, because he's is so arrogant and puts himself ahead of the team.

Personally, i dont think that all players are created equal (in terms of basketball skills and mentality)..... some play better with certain roles..... In my humble opinion:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and even quacks......Its a DUCK..... maybe Jerryd knows he's a starter.....just like you know your a basketball fan.....

you said it yourself.....Calderon is fine with coming off the bench.....his numbers generally say he can be a back up point guard.....9-11 ppg and 8-9 assists?? good but not awesome..... I would take 17-18 ppg and 6-7 assists ANYDAY of the week..... Jose would still give you those numbers with the second unit..... its common sense IMO

[Nilanka]

Personally, i dont think that all players are created equal (in terms of basketball skills and mentality)..... some play better with certain roles..... In my humble opinion:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and even quacks......Its a DUCK..... maybe Jerryd knows he's a starter.....just like you know your a basketball fan.....

you said it yourself.....Calderon is fine with coming off the bench.....his numbers generally say he can be a back up point guard.....9-11 ppg and 8-9 assists?? good but not awesome..... I would take 17-18 ppg and 6-7 assists ANYDAY of the week..... Jose would still give you those numbers with the second unit..... its common sense IMO

Common sense would be relying on neither Calderon or Bayless....

[jimmie]

I agree.... if your not bringing back Bayless to give him a shot at the starting PG....then let him go elsewhere. We've heard over and over again that the raptors are looking for a point guard.... we know that Jose's contract ends after the coming season....if Jose is not 100% apart of the future, why not give Jerryd a shot at the starting role?? At least we can stop having these debates and let his actions speak.

Would Westbrook or Jennings be as effective coming off the bench with inconsistent minutes??? Almost sounds ridiculous to ask the question..... i do recall A LOT of people saying Westbrook was not a true point guard (some still say).... i'll tell you this... I would take him on my team ANYDAY ..and i was saying this from the moment he came in the league

Bayless is not Westbrook. They aren't the same person, they're not the same player, they don't have the same skillset. The comparison doesn't really hold any water. Westbrook was never in the position Bayless has been in for 4 years, so we don't know how he would have performed if he'd started his career as a backup (although, if you DO want to compare circumstances, they both came in with the opportunity to take the starter's role; Westbrook beat out Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins after about 20 games; Bayless couldn't beat out Steve Blake and Sergio Rodriguez). Bring that argument/comparison of Westbrook-Bayless to an NBA GM and they'd laugh at you.

Look, if you can't do it off the bench, then you can't do it at all, in my books. That, combined with the fact that Bayless thinks he's a starter and wants to be a starter, are enough for me to let him walk and try his luck elsewhere. IMO, not worth the (high) potential that he'll just continue to suck off the bench, but at a higher price.