Everything Derozan

[raptors999]

That was the deal MU was looking for. Weltman said so publically. It's not a rumor or opinion, it's a fact direct from the Raptors' brass.

The "pro tankers" feel justified because MU wanted/attempted to implement the strategy they were hoping for.

The "anti tankers" feel justified because the Raps did not tank.

intent VS execution - which is more meaningful? it's subjective, I suppose

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2014/...g-key-success/

[OldSkoolCool]

Corners are very effective at their role.

We should sign 'em.

What's funny is the same bunch of posters have been pleading for Demar to get traded for YEARS. ☺️

It won't happen folks.

Some guys just don't get it.....they just don't understand... And that's okay.

Keep playing fantasy basketball folks.

All-star - yup
World champion with USA basketball - yup

All this while being a "inefficient chucker with no handles and no 3 point shot"....

OR maybe there's more to the game of basketball..... Something you guys just can't see....

I mean seriously.... Why is he still here after all these years?? hmmm

I also think it's funny that a certain self described hater of inefficient basketball knows how much DD will agree to resign for.....

Throwing 20 million around like that is guaranteed.... Please stop. You know nothing when it comes to Demar. How many times are you going to be proven wrong?


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I have a personal issue with the bold. What aren't we seeing?

I see that he doesn't have a very fluid game, he is very...practiced. When he can't go through his practiced set, it is a total disaster. I also see many passing lanes that he misses (blatantly bad in transition). He isn't a fluid player, and that's ok if he was efficient with it. He isn't a good cutter. His dribble is weak and not able to control the situation in traffic, he either needs to pull up or go into his 1-2.

Also see below:

They need to end the Ross as a SF completely and let him use the time to work on being a SG which means shooting off the dribble not going to the rim. Demar as a SF was overmatched physically.

Ross is almost never camped, nor ever receives a pass in the corner anymore (compared to last season). It's a damn shame...

DD creates a ton of offensive mismatches for our own team. We have to run our entire offense set in for DD to even be remotely a threat...and we almost never give him the ball outside the three point arc. This displaces one of our bigs at all times, and since we usually run pin-down sets for him we have to run the offense out of 3/4 of the width of the court. It is a nightmare...teams don't have to help or rotate nearly at all because they know he isn't going to pass to the roller. Right now if the ball is swung, teams don't close on DD (I wouldn't either at 20%)

If we replaced DD with Player X who could shoot a respectable clip from three, and was able to drive from the three point line, this team would be able to run sets further out (which they will need come playoffs), help spacing, and also have a third cog on the perimeter to shoot after the ball rotated.

He is good, but he is an easily replaceable player at this point due to his production and his limitations skill-wise

[consmap]

^ Didn't feel like quoting your post , but I wanted to add on to what you had to say

DeMar HAS shown the capability to hit the roll man in the past, especially with that little two-man game they run between him and Amir. I remember a more recent game where I even saw him pass to JV (gasp) on the roll that resulted in a nice bucket.

IMO the problem is that he was groomed to be a scorer, and he feels that scoring is the best way he can contribute to the team. If he were to understand that he can have an equally positive affect by playing a good TEAM game, by using the fact that he is a THREAT to score would really help.

Personally I wouldn't want to trade him if we can't get someone better. At least, until we have the choice of extending him or not. If he asks for too much I'd be reluctant to give him the money if I was Masai...

[enlightenment]

Replacing Demar with Player 'X', whose only quality is a decent 3pt% will not make this team a contender. Demar has a really good penetrating ability and that helps him on two fronts; assist opportunities and freethrows. The freethrows negate his inefficiencies, because they create points out of possessions that would've otherwise failed, and the capitalized assist opportunities will what make him into a star player on a great team. He is also underrated on Defense, in my opinion. Also as his game refines, he will pick his spots more and will become more efficient. So in my opinion, there is still more potential to untap.

[KHD]

Replacing Demar with Player 'X', whose only quality is a decent 3pt% will not make this team a contender.

That's not what oldskool said.

[special1]

That was the deal MU was looking for. Weltman said so publically. It's not a rumor or opinion, it's a fact direct from the Raptors' brass.

The "pro tankers" feel justified because MU wanted/attempted to implement the strategy they were hoping for.

The "anti tankers" feel justified because the Raps did not tank.

intent VS execution - which is more meaningful? it's subjective, I suppose

Thank you for proving what MANY anti tankers were saying...

It was not possible for us to "tank" properly ..... It was a unrealistic proposition for this team! Our roster was just too good.

Masai thought about tanking....is that your point? That's pretty easy to say and doesn't prove much.

I thought about tanking too.....So did everyone else on RR....It was a serious debate around these parts ....

Did he do it? Nope. He decided to do what MANY "anti - tankers" wanted.... Try to improve the team (addition by subtraction of Rudy Gay) and get serviceable pieces moving forward.

You forget MANY "pro tankers" wanted to trade Demar..... Why leave that part out? Pro tankers didn't think the Roster was good enough EVEN after it was clear that this team had awesome chemistry and started winning at a crazy clip. The word of the year became "Mediocrity" after that.....

It's clear what happened... Or at least I think it is. Anti tankers got what they wanted - pro tankers still sulk to this day!

I would say Execution is more meaningful...






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[Axel]

Thank you for proving what MANY anti tankers were saying...

It was not possible for us to "tank" properly ..... It was a unrealistic proposition for this team! Our roster was just too good.

Masai thought about tanking....is that your point? That's pretty easy to say and doesn't prove much.

I thought about tanking too.....So did everyone else on RR....It was a serious debate around these parts ....

Did he do it? Nope. He decided to do what MANY "anti - tankers" wanted.... Try to improve the team (addition by subtraction of Rudy Gay) and get serviceable pieces moving forward.

You forget MANY "pro tankers" wanted to trade Demar..... Why leave that part out? Pro tankers didn't think the Roster was good enough EVEN after it was clear that this team had awesome chemistry and started winning at a crazy clip. The word of the year became "Mediocrity" after that.....

It's clear what happened... Or at least I think it is. Anti tankers got what they wanted - pro tankers still sulk to this day!

I would say Execution is more meaningful...






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You do realize that it is completely impossible to say which scenario was right. Unless you can split the universe and have two parallels, one tanking and one not, you cannot compare to say what the best course of action would be.

Also, it's completely insane to be trying to say what was best for the team after 1 calendar year when we are discussing multi-year plans and processes. If this team doesn't win in the playoffs and gets blown up in a couple of years, would that not disprove your theory? Point is, when discussing the "long game", you can't judge anything after a year.

These are very simple premises that you continue to completely ignore, just so you can try and "prove" that you were right.

[special1]

This post just reminds me how unwilling or unable you were to understand the rebuilding strategy that got branded "pro tank". Despite many people trying to explain that proposed strategy, you were never able to understand or accept that it meant something beyond "lose on purpose to get the #1 pick and hope you draft the next LBJ".

MU was trying to "tank" in the exact way that the "pro tankers" were suggesting - trade established vets for young prospects and/or draft picks, as the starting point for a methodical rebuilding process with the priority on the long-term.

The Gay trade brought young prospects (Vasquez & Patterson) and cap space (Salmons expiring, Hayes expiring the next year).

The proposed Lowry trade would have brought young prospects (Shumpert and/or Hardaway) and draft pick.

It was never about losing on purpose or putting all eggs in a single basket, be it a single pick or a single draft.

The team-building strategy was over your head last year and continues to be, which made/makes it very difficult to have a constructive discussion with you, because you're too busy gloating about something that isn't the "W" you're trying to make it out to be.

Besides, as planetmars said, we'll never know which approach would have been the best, over the immediate, short or long term. So, we move on and continue looking for the 'best' way to build this team to be successful.

As for DeRozan, the last two games have epitomized the best of times and worst of times. DeRozan and/or DC need to decide what DeRozan we're going to see game in and game out - is he an all around player, or is he a dedicated scorer, even if he has to force it. If it's the latter, I want either DC and/or DD gone, because ISO-DD is just bad basketball.

The meaning of "tank" seems to be eluding you... It's like you're trying to associate tanking with increased in-season winning success (is that possible given the definition of tank?)....Yet I'm the person that doesn't understand...

I have to to go to work so I have to make this quick...I'll copy paste my reply to one of your post in this thread as it's relevant.

Thank You for proving what MANY anti tankers were saying...

It was not possible for us to "tank" properly ..... It was a unrealistic proposition for this team! Our roster was just too good.

Masai thought about tanking....is that your point? That's pretty easy to say and doesn't prove much.

I thought about tanking too.....So did everyone else on RR....It was a serious debate around these parts ....

Did he do it? Nope. He decided to do what MANY "anti - tankers" wanted.... Try to improve the team (addition by subtraction of Rudy Gay) and get serviceable pieces moving forward.

You forget MANY "pro tankers" wanted to trade Demar..... Why leave that part out? Pro tankers didn't think the Roster was good enough EVEN after it was clear that this team had awesome chemistry and started winning at a crazy clip. The word of the year became "Mediocrity" after that.....

It's clear what happened... Or at least I think it is. Anti tankers got what they wanted - pro tankers still sulk to this day!


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[special1]

Is it time to trade Demar DeRozan

You do realize that it is completely impossible to say which scenario was right. Unless you can split the universe and have two parallels, one tanking and one not, you cannot compare to say what the best course of action would be.

Also, it's completely insane to be trying to say what was best for the team after 1 calendar year when we are discussing multi-year plans and processes. If this team doesn't win in the playoffs and gets blown up in a couple of years, would that not disprove your theory? Point is, when discussing the "long game", you can't judge anything after a year.

These are very simple premises that you continue to completely ignore, just so you can try and "prove" that you were right.

It wasn't about which scenario was right or wrong.....

It's about what was actually done...

I think most people would say that we obviously chose NOT to tank.... I guess that's still up for debate among some pro tankers...lol


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[Axel]

This comment...

How was tanking a failure if it was never executed?

Plus this comment...

I said "The Massive Tank Movement was a failure" Nilanka....I guess you missed that part. You were a tank commander weren't you?

You remember the pro tankers....the people who knew the best way to build a team... The only way to keep us out of mediocrity.... lol

Funny how the same posters that thought this roster was soo trash are now saying we're a piece or two away from being a championship calibre team....lol.

#Firecasey

Now they're saying we're just a new coach away?

Take this L pro tankers!

Currently 2nd in the East... 35-17.

Mediocrity feels pretty good I must say ... Rather this than the 76ers!

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Does not equal this comment....

It wasn't about which scenario was right or wrong.....

It's about what was actually done...

I think most people would say that we obviously chose NOT to tank.... I guess that's still up for debate among some pro tankers...lol


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I think it's very fair to say you are all about right vs wrong.

[big boi]

Did he do it? Nope. He decided to do what MANY "anti - tankers" wanted.... Try to improve the team (addition by subtraction of Rudy Gay) and get serviceable pieces moving foward

Trading Gay was not a decision not to tank. It was consistent with a tank effort. The resulting "addition by subtraction" Allowing other players to flourish and the team's improved chemistry, and of course winning, Changed masai's calculus.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

[raptors999]

Honestly, this is the year to "tank". Play Bruno and Bebe give Ross the ball on the second unit and trade Lou. Raptors will be the fourth seed at worst and its a good time to accelerate development and get a better pick. Its almost impossible to get a lottery pick in the East without having a terrible roster. Bucks aren't great and are over .500

[Other Scott]

That was the deal MU was looking for. Weltman said so publically. It's not a rumor or opinion, it's a fact direct from the Raptors' brass.

The "pro tankers" feel justified because MU wanted/attempted to implement the strategy they were hoping for.

The "anti tankers" feel justified because the Raps did not tank.

intent VS execution - which is more meaningful? it's subjective, I suppose

Can I just edit a bit?

The anti-tankers feel justified that the the Raptors proved that tanking wasn't necessary to move up to Eastern Conference contender status. Intent doesn't really matter, because that was proved by the result.

You could argue whether the Raptors are EC contenders or not, but they've consistently been the second best team all year, and if they stay there they are just one injury/poor series away from winning the East. That's a contender in my mind.

[Superjudge]

Messiah tried to tank. In trying, the team got better.

thats about it.

Now its a slightly above average because the role players he found actually created a deep squad.

make no mistakes, this team is still far from contender status and still lacks the top end skill immediately needed for that status.

Messiah's tank was to get that talent in wiggins, but it simply never materialized.

[Nilanka]

Can I just edit a bit?

The anti-tankers feel justified that the the Raptors proved that tanking wasn't necessary to move up to Eastern Conference contender status. Intent doesn't really matter, because that was proved by the result.

You could argue whether the Raptors are EC contenders or not, but they've consistently been the second best team all year, and if they stay there they are just one injury/poor series away from winning the East. That's a contender in my mind.

You touch on an important point in the tanking debate. That is, whether one believes the current team has achieved anything worthwhile yet.

On the one hand, the Anti-Tankers feel justified that we've built a "contender" that didn't rely on any top-3 picks.

On the other hand, the Pro-Tankers acknowledge that we're having a great regular season (just like last year), but "contenders" are made in the playoffs. Regular season be damned.

We're all happy the team is winning, but where one falls in this debate seems to rely on whether one feels we've accomplished anything significant yet.