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  • chris wrote: View Post

    i get the talent but man it's hard to shake the fact that jimmy butler was so desperate to not play with him that he literally assembled the national media to a timberwolves practice for the sole purpose of completely humiliating him.

    anthony davis was brought up as a comparable situation up-thread but i'm not sure it's a good comp because anthony davis was a two way player, even when he was on bad teams. i'm not sure you could win at a high level with KAT... i feel like he'd either get played off the floor or be fully exploited.

    most of this board is eager to get rid of siakam but guys that can give you 40 mins a night of excellent two-way when the stakes are highest don't grow on trees.
    Well, Butler's an asshole, so you have to factor that into it all.

    I would not want Towns as my best player with the expectations that he is going to lead you as a contending team, however, as a #2 guy playing alongside a superstar the equation changes. Maybe, in Toronto, he'd also do fine with a well oiled machine around him but hard to know.

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    • slaw wrote: View Post

      Well, Butler's an asshole, so you have to factor that into it all.

      I would not want Towns as my best player with the expectations that he is going to lead you as a contending team, however, as a #2 guy playing alongside a superstar the equation changes. Maybe, in Toronto, he'd also do fine with a well oiled machine around him but hard to know.
      yeah the thing is.. you could get KAT to work if you could some how trade for him without giving up OG and Siakam.

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      • KAT, OG, Malachi, GTJ

        Promising core

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        • KeonClark wrote: View Post

          Wow, couldn't disagree anymore. Vuc is having a career year at 30 and just now sniffing the numbers 25 year old KAT has been posting for years. KAT is an ELITE shooting, elite rebounding center. Franchise player in the sense that he's definitely one of the top 30 players in the world, despite injuries, family struggles, and a joke of a franchise.

          Don't talk about winning until he gets away from that joke squad in Minny. In their entire miserable 31 year existence, they made it out of the first round ONCE. And that's WITH an all time great hall of famer in KG for over 10 years lol. Even he couldn't win with em. KAT could very well finish his career as an empty stats guy with not a lot of accomplishments. Or he could go to a new franchise, re enter the "best big in the game" discussions, find a new gear and win a ring as the best player. Either one is very possible, but he is certainly worth the risk.

          If Minnesota was actually crazy to do it for basically Siakam? You drive to the airport and pick him up before they change their minds.
          Yeah he's 25.. that's the only thing he has going for him. He's a 1 way player, just like Vucevic is, and he plays a position that you can usually pay the mid-level too and get away with. I mean he had Thibs as his coach for a few years, and still never learned to play defense.

          I think a Pascal for KAT swap would be shuffling deck chairs. We lose defense and gain some better offense. I'll take the guy that plays defense.. especially in the playoffs when it matters.

          It's all moot anyway. Minny won't trade the guy. I like the kid, but I don't think he's that great. But I also like Vucevic. Just not enough to empty the cupboards for (like Chicago did).

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          • slaw wrote: View Post

            Well, Butler's an asshole, so you have to factor that into it all.

            I would not want Towns as my best player with the expectations that he is going to lead you as a contending team, however, as a #2 guy playing alongside a superstar the equation changes. Maybe, in Toronto, he'd also do fine with a well oiled machine around him but hard to know.
            Butler is an asshole only to the weak.
            Bet we all would love to have him in the team.
            He makes everyone accountable which is what every team needs

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            • LOVE players like Butler with a little bit of F U in them. Most of our players are entirely too soft and that only ramps up once Lowry leaves.

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              • Kagemusha wrote: View Post

                Butler is an asshole only to the weak.
                Bet we all would love to have him in the team.
                He makes everyone accountable which is what every team needs
                Yeah, that's pretty much what an asshole is. They don't act that way to the strong cause they get kicked in the teeth.

                Butler is a guy who needs to be in the right time and place. He fits well in Miami where Spoelstra and Riley are in charge and won't put up with his bullshit. Same reason Butler was great with Thibs in Chicago, he couldn't get away with any garbage. Also why Philly didn't work - Sixers didn't have anyone to keep him in his lane.

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                • slaw wrote: View Post

                  Yeah, that's pretty much what an asshole is. They don't act that way to the strong cause they get kicked in the teeth.

                  Butler is a guy who needs to be in the right time and place. He fits well in Miami where Spoelstra and Riley are in charge and won't put up with his bullshit. Same reason Butler was great with Thibs in Chicago, he couldn't get away with any garbage. Also why Philly didn't work - Sixers didn't have anyone to keep him in his lane.
                  You could also spin that the other way: Riley, Spo and Thibs keep all the "other guys" in line, so Butler doesn't have to do the job of weak coaches, like Brett Brown and Fred Hoiberg, to hold them accountable.

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                  • golden wrote: View Post

                    You could also spin that the other way: Riley, Spo and Thibs keep all the "other guys" in line, so Butler doesn't have to do the job of weak coaches, like Brett Brown and Fred Hoiberg, to hold them accountable.
                    Oh yeah, definitely. His job in Miami is to play and be a leader on and off the floor as a player and he doesn't need to (and wouldn't be welcome) to start leaving his lane, so he can focus rather than trying to do 3 jobs. Both things are true.

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                    • slaw wrote: View Post

                      Oh yeah, definitely. His job in Miami is to play and be a leader on and off the floor as a player and he doesn't need to (and wouldn't be welcome) to start leaving his lane, so he can focus rather than trying to do 3 jobs. Both things are true.
                      But then is Butler's abrasive attitude really "bullshit" that needs to be kept in line, as you said, or is he just correctly pointing out that the organization's culture isn't where it needs to be and somebody (coach, GM, players) need to be accountable for that.

                      I've been in companies where the guy who is brave enough to talk about the elephant in the room is the messenger who gets shot and labelled toxic.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post

                        But then is Butler's abrasive attitude really "bullshit" that needs to be kept in line, as you said, or is he just correctly pointing out that the organization's culture isn't where it needs to be and somebody (coach, GM, players) need to be accountable for that.

                        I've been in companies where the guy who is brave enough to talk about the elephant in the room is the messenger who gets shot and labelled toxic.
                        I would say both. Butler seems like a pretty complex dude, and from the outside looking in, you could describe as a combustible, selfish, at times toxic element, and also describe him as a warrior, team first, great leader, and I could agree with both.
                        It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                        • slaw wrote: View Post

                          Yeah, that's pretty much what an asshole is. They don't act that way to the strong cause they get kicked in the teeth.

                          Butler is a guy who needs to be in the right time and place. He fits well in Miami where Spoelstra and Riley are in charge and won't put up with his bullshit. Same reason Butler was great with Thibs in Chicago, he couldn't get away with any garbage. Also why Philly didn't work - Sixers didn't have anyone to keep him in his lane.
                          ok then so what's the differentiating factor between the success butler and thibs achieved together in chicago and it all going to hell in minneapolis, if not for him feeling like his most talented timberwolves team mates were softer than baby shit and there was zero chance he could win with them?

                          i'd argue the top end talent in minnesota was significantly higher than in chicago, particularly once injuries/aging to rose/deng/noah is accounted for and especially if KAT is the franchise talent ppl here think he is.

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                          • chris wrote: View Post

                            ok then so what's the differentiating factor between the success butler and thibs achieved together in chicago and it all going to hell in minneapolis, if not for him feeling like his most talented timberwolves team mates were softer than baby shit and there was zero chance he could win with them?

                            i'd argue the top end talent in minnesota was significantly higher than in chicago, particularly once injuries/aging to rose/deng/noah is accounted for and especially if KAT is the franchise talent ppl here think he is.
                            Who knows? Everyone has their reasons and there's probably a few sides to the story. That is certainly how Butler wants it remembered and I'm sure there is some truth to it. There's also probably some truth to the fact that he never wanted to be there and play in Minny, so maneuvered his way out by becoming such a problem they had to trade him.

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                            • chris wrote: View Post

                              ok then so what's the differentiating factor between the success butler and thibs achieved together in chicago and it all going to hell in minneapolis, if not for him feeling like his most talented timberwolves team mates were softer than baby shit and there was zero chance he could win with them?

                              i'd argue the top end talent in minnesota was significantly higher than in chicago, particularly once injuries/aging to rose/deng/noah is accounted for and especially if KAT is the franchise talent ppl here think he is.
                              That's an easy one. In Minnesota, Thibs has direct input into Butler's contract and salary negotiations. Minny never offered Butler the 5-year extension he was looking for, and IMO, that was the real reason why he resented KAT and Wiggins, and rightfully so. Guys never say it's about the money, when it's almost always about the money. Sixers never offered the 5th year either and Butler left a championship-calibre team.

                              There is an intrinsic conflict-of-interest in these GM/POBO/Coach positions that never seem to work (Rivers, SVG, Bud,....). But more importantly, it's basically impossible to do both jobs at a high level because those are 2 very complex and time-intensive jobs that you simply cannot delegate.

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                              • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                                I would say both. Butler seems like a pretty complex dude, and from the outside looking in, you could describe as a combustible, selfish, at times toxic element, and also describe him as a warrior, team first, great leader, and I could agree with both.
                                Yeah in the wrong environment a guy like that has a negative impact but in the right one his hyper competitiveness and interpersonal approach can really drive things. All depends on how the people around him take it.

                                Personally I used to think HR mumbo jumbo about soft skills and team and fit was all BS. It still can be but through work experience I can also see what it's getting at. I don't need kumbaya on a team but I do need the pieces to fit to accomplish the outcomes we're looking for. And effective teams can look very different depending how their members operate, but still be effective. But throw the wrong person in there and boom goes the dynamite.
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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