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magoon wrote: View PostWe're second in the east because our young guys have gotten limited playing time. When you play inexperienced players, you lose more games; Masai's completely right when he says it's almost impossible to develop talent and win games at the same time, because winning games means playing experienced players and developing talent means playing inexperienced ones. That's the trade-off of giving young players NBA experience. If you want to win games, you play your best players. Competitive games in the NBA aren't basketball camp and no team that's seriously trying to compete treats them that way.
Golden State has young players: Kevon Looney and James Michael McAdoo. McAdoo has played 147 minutes this season; Looney has played 25. The Clippers have young players: Branden Dawson has 14 minutes and CJ Wilcox has 60. The Celtics - who are a VERY YOUNG TEAM - have given Jordan Mickey 20 minutes, Terry Rozier 112 minutes, and James Young 165 minutes. Josh Huestis has literally not played ONE MINUTE with the Thunder so far this year - it's all been D-League minutes for him.
Mark Jackson is much maligned, but one thing he doesn't get enough credit for is instilling a level of confidence into a group of young players that has helped them completely blow past their expected talent ceilings when they were drafted. If it was only one player (say Curry) who exceeded his ceiling, you could say that was a fluke, but Jackson had multiple young guys do it, so he deserves kudos for that.Last edited by golden; Tue Mar 1, 2016, 05:12 PM.
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magoon wrote: View PostWe're second in the east because our young guys have gotten limited playing time. When you play inexperienced players, you lose more games; Masai's completely right when he says it's almost impossible to develop talent and win games at the same time, because winning games means playing experienced players and developing talent means playing inexperienced ones. That's the trade-off of giving young players NBA experience. If you want to win games, you play your best players. Competitive games in the NBA aren't basketball camp and no team that's seriously trying to compete treats them that way.
Golden State has young players: Kevon Looney and James Michael McAdoo. McAdoo has played 147 minutes this season; Looney has played 25. The Clippers have young players: Branden Dawson has 14 minutes and CJ Wilcox has 60. The Celtics - who are a VERY YOUNG TEAM - have given Jordan Mickey 20 minutes, Terry Rozier 112 minutes, and James Young 165 minutes. Josh Huestis has literally not played ONE MINUTE with the Thunder so far this year - it's all been D-League minutes for him.
Casey has given Bebe 144 minutes, Delon 75 minutes, Powell 165 minutes and gave Anthony Bennett 84 minutes. He's actually been giving the kids more play time than most young players ever see at the end of the bench, but because Raptors fans are generally pretty stupid and don't understand coaching well, they've decided that Casey refuses to play young players, despite the fact that Terrence Ross, under Casey's tutelage, has gradually evolved from an athletic nobody into a rock-solid 3-and-D wing, or that Jonas Valanciunas and DeMar DeRozan's game has improved dramatically while playing for Casey, or that Casey gave Norman Powell - a first-year player and second-round pick - multiple starts this year. Those players of course are all responsible in part for their own improvement, but coaching has played just as large a role.
As for Scola, they were clearly hoping that Bennett would be able to take spot minutes from Scola and it hasn't happened, so instead Casey's been working to reduce Scola's overall minutes by playing Patterson more and using JJ as a smallball four when he can. Since January 1, Scola's played more than twenty minutes only nine times and more than 24 minutes only twice, and Patterson was sick for one of those games. Casey hasn't moved Scola out of the starting lineup, but that's really not significant because at this point in the season Casey's go-to crunchtime lineups don't involve Scola. Does it particularly matter that Scola starts a game if Patterson spends most of the game playing PF?
Stanley Johnson: 1300 MP
Frank Kaminsky: 1200 MP
Raul Neto: 1100 MP
Trey Lyles: 900 MP
Myles Turner: 800 MP
Bobby Portis: 600 MP
Jonathon Simmons: 600 MP
Cameron Payne: 400 MP
Josh Richardson: 400 MP
Lamar Patterson: 300 MP
All rookies, all on teams either in the playoffs or fighting for a playoff spot.
Ross, JV and DeMar all developed very nicely under Casey - with no season under 1200 MP between the three of them. Casey could certainly have played them more, but he played them enough. These young players on the team now are not getting anywhere near the development time those three did, and as you so rightly point out, they turned out pretty good.
As for Scola, yes, it matters if he is starting. He performs at his worst with Lowry, DD and JV, and with him starting and his minutes shrinking to just under 20, it means he plays ALL his minutes with those guys now, and each of them have to play half their minutes in lineups doomed to accomplish nothing. We can't afford to be sending Lowry out there with lineups where the team is not gaining, or is losing ground, for half of his minutes, because then he has to spend more time out there with the bench to make up that ground.
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golden wrote: View PostI agree in general, but actually GSW is not a good example to support what you're saying. You look at 2012-13 Warriors when Mark Jackson took over as coach. Jackson played 4 really young players (Barnes, Draymond, Ezeli - all rookies + Klay, sophomore) over 1000 minutes each and still won 47 games in the western conference. Even Kent Bazemore got in 260 minutes. And this was before Curry became Curry, who also relatively young at the time. It probably gave those guys a lot of confidence and on-court experience to become the GSW that we see today, which is a talented team with a lot of young 'vets'.
Mark Jackson is much maligned, but one thing he doesn't get enough credit for is instilling a level of confidence into a group young players that has helped them completely blow past their expected talent ceilings when they were drafted. If it was only one player (say Curry) who exceeded his ceiling, you could say that was a fluke, but Jackson had multiple young guys do it, so he deserves kudos for that.
One thing I know for sure, no one develops or gets better by sitting on the bench. It's very difficult to find a good player who didn't play a serious amount of minutes their rookie year.
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Myles Turner is the one for me that proves the point.
He's been such a huge part of Indiana staying relevant this year, and if they hadn't played him significant minutes, not only would they not know he's this good, they wouldn't be in the playoff race.twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle
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DanH wrote: View PostJustise Winslowe: 1500 MP
Stanley Johnson: 1300 MP
Frank Kaminsky: 1200 MP
Raul Neto: 1100 MP
Trey Lyles: 900 MP
Myles Turner: 800 MP
Bobby Portis: 600 MP
Jonathon Simmons: 600 MP
Cameron Payne: 400 MP
Josh Richardson: 400 MP
Lamar Patterson: 300 MP
All rookies, all on teams either in the playoffs or fighting for a playoff spot.
Ross, JV and DeMar all developed very nicely under Casey - with no season under 1200 MP between the three of them. Casey could certainly have played them more, but he played them enough. These young players on the team now are not getting anywhere near the development time those three did, and as you so rightly point out, they turned out pretty good.
As for Scola, yes, it matters if he is starting. He performs at his worst with Lowry, DD and JV, and with him starting and his minutes shrinking to just under 20, it means he plays ALL his minutes with those guys now, and each of them have to play half their minutes in lineups doomed to accomplish nothing. We can't afford to be sending Lowry out there with lineups where the team is not gaining, or is losing ground, for half of his minutes, because then he has to spend more time out there with the bench to make up that ground.
Enough about the damn rookies. If you guys honestly think we're holding Delon friggin wright back from being the next Jason kidd, well continue on. No rookie or 2nd year player has earned the right to leap frog over the guys out there performing. But then again this is the Internet, and every fan board loves there prosssspectzzz9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum
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KeonClark wrote: View PostAll those guys you listed are in completely different situations ie came in highly regarded (winslow), had a depth chart advantage (kaminsky) or performed really well in the small opening they got (Lyles, portis)
Enough about the damn rookies. If you guys honestly think we're holding Delon friggin wright back from being the next Jason kidd, well continue on. No rookie or 2nd year player has earned the right to leap frog over the guys out there performing. But then again this is the Internet, and every fan board loves there prosssspectzzz
I believe the arguments were that they were assets and were not developing like they could, that they might not hurt us as much as is being claimed (and evidence was provided of teams having success in spite of playing young players big minutes, regardless of the reason for those minutes), and that we have players who are being overworked and even a small role for these young players could see a reduction in the problematic minutes.
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DanH wrote: View PostJustise Winslowe: 1500 MP
Stanley Johnson: 1300 MP
Frank Kaminsky: 1200 MP
Raul Neto: 1100 MP
Trey Lyles: 900 MP
Myles Turner: 800 MP
Bobby Portis: 600 MP
Jonathon Simmons: 600 MP
Cameron Payne: 400 MP
Josh Richardson: 400 MP
Lamar Patterson: 300 MP
All rookies, all on teams either in the playoffs or fighting for a playoff spot.Two beer away from being two beers away.
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Mess wrote: View PostShould have also included their draft positions and team records too. And # of players ahead of them in the depth chart who are injured.
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DanH wrote: View PostJustise Winslowe: 1500 MP
Stanley Johnson: 1300 MP
Frank Kaminsky: 1200 MP
Raul Neto: 1100 MP
Trey Lyles: 900 MP
Myles Turner: 800 MP
Bobby Portis: 600 MP
Jonathon Simmons: 600 MP
Cameron Payne: 400 MP
Josh Richardson: 400 MP
Lamar Patterson: 300 MP
All rookies, all on teams either in the playoffs or fighting for a playoff spot.
Secondly, many of those players got more minutes because the starters who would have taken those minutes were injured. Kaminsky got a lot of Al Jefferson's minutes. Neto got Dante Exum's minutes. Lyles got minutes from Rudy Gobert's and Derrick Favors' injuries; Portis got minutes because Joakim Noah and Nikola Mirotic went down with injuries. Simmons' minutes have grown because Manu went down, Richardson got minutes when Dragic went down. Et cetera.
Ross, JV and DeMar all developed very nicely under Casey - with no season under 1200 MP between the three of them. Casey could certainly have played them more, but he played them enough. These young players on the team now are not getting anywhere near the development time those three did, and as you so rightly point out, they turned out pretty good.
Finally, I think it's important to note that despite a lack of NBA-level minutes, Bebe and Norman in particular have demonstrated obvious growth over the course of the year.
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KeonClark wrote: View PostAll those guys you listed are in completely different situations ie came in highly regarded (winslow), had a depth chart advantage (kaminsky) or performed really well in the small opening they got (Lyles, portis)
Enough about the damn rookies. If you guys honestly think we're holding Delon friggin wright back from being the next Jason kidd, well continue on. No rookie or 2nd year player has earned the right to leap frog over the guys out there performing. But then again this is the Internet, and every fan board loves there prosssspectzzztwitter.com/anthonysmdoyle
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Barolt wrote: View PostIn the 75 minutes he's had, Wright is averaging 14/5/5 per 36 minutes. Surely he's earned another handful of minutes for 'performing really well in the small opening he got', right?
Its kind of baffling, the guys that yell to the heavens about "look how awful we were the last 2 Months of last year and what happened!" Seem to be the same posters wanting to turn these games into a mini tryout for rookies.
And we wonder why casey throws pot shots. The guy is "damned if he do, dwaned if he dont"9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum
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magoon wrote: View PostFirstly, with the exception of Payne, Simmons and the Miami players, most of those players are playing on borderline playoff teams, and there's a difference between "actually has a shot at Finals" (which we do, albeit a slim one) and "can make the playoffs."
Secondly, many of those players got more minutes because the starters who would have taken those minutes were injured. Kaminsky got a lot of Al Jefferson's minutes. Neto got Dante Exum's minutes. Lyles got minutes from Rudy Gobert's and Derrick Favors' injuries; Portis got minutes because Joakim Noah and Nikola Mirotic went down with injuries. Simmons' minutes have grown because Manu went down, Richardson got minutes when Dragic went down. Et cetera.
Yes, but Ross, JV and DeMar were getting those minutes over seasons where the Raptors weren't expected to compete (2011, 2012, half of 2013) or were competing but where the team was clearly still evaluating them (second half of 2013, 2014). It's simply not a comparable situation.
Finally, I think it's important to note that despite a lack of NBA-level minutes, Bebe and Norman in particular have demonstrated obvious growth over the course of the year.
19 MIN, 12-14 FG, 0.857 FG%, 8 PTS, 4 REB, 1 AST, +/- Positive in every game
Culminating in a standout performance against Golden State:
24:50 MIN, 7-9 FG, 0.778 FG%, 14 PTS, 4 REB, 3 AST, 1 STL
Bebe was rewarded by not playing in the next 3 games. JV was out for 10 more games after the GSW game. Bebe only got PT in 5 of them. There is no rhyme or reason to this development pattern.
Considering that both Derozan and Ross can play the 3 for stretches, and that our starting PF Demarre Carroll has only played in 23 games, we should have had some minutes available for Wright in 2 PG lineups and Powell as the 2nd wing (he's another guy that can also play some SF), particularly for Wright as he was an NBA ready 1st round pick. A slight decrease in Lowry, DD, and CoJo minutes, plus some of JJ's minutes, and you've got 10-15 minutes per game to give to a rookie. Wright looked really good in his one chance at real playing time when we rested Lowry, imagine how good he'd look right now if we had been playing him 10-15 per game the entire time Carroll's been out.
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