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  • DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post
    Yeah I think it would be stupid not to at least try the JV/PM pairing cause aside from Draymond Green, Millsap is probably the best frontcourt mate with JV. Also I think JV can step his game up in the playoffs. If it doesn't work out, trade him in the off season.
    But what's going to change with the addition of Millsap? JV isn't going to get more touches, and that's why he's a wasted asset.

    By hanging onto him into the playoffs, you run the risk that Casey benches him frequently, thus solidifying a role player perception and diminishing his trade value.

    The real fulcrum of the discussion should be DeMar vs JV, because they're both relatively young and it doesn't seem like they can coexist on the floor to their full capacity. If Masai has any inclination to deal DeMar (highly unlikely), he could keep JV into the playoffs and potentially retool around Kyle/Paul/JV if we fall flat on our face.

    But if DeMar is here for good (very likely), you swap JV before the deadline and maximize the extracted value.

    Comment


    • If we are going all in on Millsap to take on lebron then I don't think we should hide are center on defense and I'd expect millsap takes #3 option fga which leaves little to role players like jv and Carroll. Both those guys have to play D to stay on the court (of course everyone has to play D).

      Dwight, bogut, noel, roco

      Those are potentially available names I'd rather have to try to stop lebron. Hopefully we could trade Sully instead of pat. Combining pat, Millsap and one or two of the above gives us such a better chance.
      Going all in means going all in, no half measures. Give Casey the tools he needs to execute a game plan. It should start with defense imo.
      KD, Lebron, curry are all better offensive players than our guys. We're not beating them with jv hook shots, we need demar to become for real Kobe and not Kobe lite.

      Comment


      • Scraptor wrote: View Post
        But what's going to change with the addition of Millsap? JV isn't going to get more touches, and that's why he's a wasted asset.

        By hanging onto him into the playoffs, you run the risk that Casey benches him frequently, thus solidifying a role player perception and diminishing his trade value.

        The real fulcrum of the discussion should be DeMar vs JV, because they're both relatively young and it doesn't seem like they can coexist on the floor to their full capacity. If Masai has any inclination to deal DeMar (highly unlikely), he could keep JV into the playoffs and potentially retool around Kyle/Paul/JV if we fall flat on our face.

        But if DeMar is here for good (very likely), you swap JV before the deadline and maximize the extracted value.
        But many here seem to liken Jonas to other bigs like Monroe, Vooch, etc who are starting to come off the bench. If that is his perception, and in the box score he his stats have been virtually the same over the last 3 years, how great is his trade value now? To me, he is a guy the Raps value more than anyone else.

        I honestly doubt JV gets fewer touches with Milsap. For one, he doesn't get a lot of post ups as it is, and he probably gets more minutes cause Milsap will make any defensive lineup better. Honestly give all the shots PP would get (based on his per36 so about 8.5) plus lower Demar's shots to what he took last season (giving Milsap about 4 more shots) and you are just a couple away from what Milsap takes without taking any from JV.

        You could say the same bit about Casey benching JV in the playoffs last year, but instead JV made that impossible with great play. In my opinion this is as least ass likely as him getting benched. The worst outcome from a JV benching is the increased perception of JV as a big not meant for the modern NBA, though still on a good contract and meant for a role like Monroe or Kanter. At best, JV plays like last year and looks like a dominant big. To me his trade value has so much more to gain by playing alongside Milsap til the end of the season.

        Comment


        • In a series with Cleveland with Millsap I do think we have an outside chance. We have a better supporting cast than they do, so that's a plus there. Then you're talking about the matchup between the 3 stars respectively LeBron-Kyrie-Love vs. Lowry-DeRozan-Millsap. (I'm matching Lowry up against LeBron because they're the highest impact players and engines of the team. DeRozan vs. Kyrie because they're the volume scorers. Not a positional thing).

          If you have Millsap/DeMar match Love/Kyrie's production and LeBron not be too dominant by his standards (we have no chance if he's playing at the kind of level we saw in the finals last year) while Lowry has the series of his life, we could beat them at "full strength" also need the role players to outperform theirs. Basically you need everything to go right, but without Millsap I think even if everything goes right barring LeBron getting injured there is a 0% chance of us winning the series.

          Comment


          • golden wrote: View Post
            Jeez, Axel. I rarely disagree with your posts, but I absolutely hate this type of thinking.

            So basically, whenever a generational talent comes into the league, the other franchises should just pack it in for 15 years or so, or whenever it's clear he's in decline. And what happens if you just miss out on that next generational talent when LBJ declines. What if Giannis is that next generational talent? We wait another 15 years until Greek Freak declines? That's 30 years of Hinkiesque rebuilding, by design? I mean how exactly are you supposed to synchronize all these good (for you) and bad (for other teams) events happening that are mostly out of your control?
            Hey, I never said not to do it, I merely pointed out that if we are going all-in on a Lowry-Millsap window then the reality is LeBron James is our first main obstacle (GSW being a whole other story).

            Right now, other than Lowry, we have a young group. If we trade for Millsap we are shifting the timeline up and that changes the roster composition strategy.

            If we are really all-in for a Millsap-Lowry window, then I would be more open to moving a guy like JV because as much as I don't buy the whole "can't fit modern C" crap you see around here, reality is with Millsap on offence, then JVs offensive value takes another hit further exasperating the defensive issues.

            So yeah, LeBron James needs to be taken into consideration. If you decide to go for it, then you need to find ways to counter LeBron and the Cavs and that might mean trading younger guys (Powell?) for guys with very specific skill sets who can contribute immediately. You can't just build based on what you want your team to look like, you need to keep an eye on the NBA landscape. Long term builds that's less important because of the ever shifting dynamics but short term win-now is much more specific.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

            Comment


            • Axel wrote: View Post
              Hey, I never said not to do it, I merely pointed out that if we are going all-in on a Lowry-Millsap window then the reality is LeBron James is our first main obstacle (GSW being a whole other story).

              Right now, other than Lowry, we have a young group. If we trade for Millsap we are shifting the timeline up and that changes the roster composition strategy.

              If we are really all-in for a Millsap-Lowry window, then I would be more open to moving a guy like JV because as much as I don't buy the whole "can't fit modern C" crap you see around here, reality is with Millsap on offence, then JVs offensive value takes another hit further exasperating the defensive issues.

              So yeah, LeBron James needs to be taken into consideration. If you decide to go for it, then you need to find ways to counter LeBron and the Cavs and that might mean trading younger guys (Powell?) for guys with very specific skill sets who can contribute immediately. You can't just build based on what you want your team to look like, you need to keep an eye on the NBA landscape. Long term builds that's less important because of the ever shifting dynamics but short term win-now is much more specific.
              We don't have a young group. Yes the overall average age of the team is low because of the number of prospects on the end of the bench but the core is not actually that young.

              Lowry - 30
              DeRozan - 27
              Patterson - 27
              Carroll - 30

              Then the next group are not old yes, but they are close to hitting peak age in the NBA. In the NBA statistically players hit their peak between the age 26 and 27 season on average.

              Ross - 25
              CoJo - 25
              Valanciunas - 24

              This is not a young core. It is a core with players about to hit their prime, in their primes and near the end of their primes (or past it like Carroll thanks to his injuries). We need to take a shot now especially given that our best player is in his 30s.

              Comment


              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                We don't have a young group. Yes the overall average age of the team is low because of the number of prospects on the end of the bench but the core is not actually that young.

                Lowry - 30
                DeRozan - 27
                Patterson - 27
                Carroll - 30

                Then the next group are not old yes, but they are close to hitting peak age in the NBA. In the NBA statistically players hit their peak between the age 26 and 27 season on average.

                Ross - 25
                CoJo - 25
                Valanciunas - 24

                This is not a young core. It is a core with players about to hit their prime, in their primes and near the end of their primes (or past it like Carroll thanks to his injuries). We need to take a shot now especially given that our best player is in his 30s.
                Our team is young enough to peak beyond a presumed LeBron window, which, for the intent of this conversation, is all that is really applicable. Other than Lowry, the rest of our team would still be in their prime or younger when LeBron's presumed peak ends. Nothing in your post really changes that point.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                Comment


                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  Our team is young enough to peak beyond a presumed LeBron window, which, for the intent of this conversation, is all that is really applicable. Other than Lowry, the rest of our team would still be in their prime or younger when LeBron's presumed peak ends. Nothing in your post really changes that point.
                  This is the problem. There is no "other than Lowry" without Lowry this team is not a ECF team or a title contender. We can't "peak" beyond Lowry's best years (i.e. right now and probably for a couple more) without somehow acquiring another Lowry afterwards.

                  If anything LeBron's window might actually be LONGER than Lowry's. You can't just bank on waiting until LeBron isn't good anymore to try and win. What happens if another LeBron shows up or another team becomes the "unbeatable" one? You don't just throw in the towel like that.
                  Last edited by Lupe; Tue Jan 3, 2017, 07:29 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Axel wrote: View Post
                    The counter to this thinking is: LeBron James

                    We would be tying our title chances to the same window of LeBron. That's risky in of itself.
                    The Raptors should be more mindful of Kyle Lowry's window.

                    I think LeBron's window is much larger than the typical NBA player given his IQ, skills and body type. The Raptors need to be aggressive and try to win it now. They're going to face stiff competition for an NBA title no matter the year or era.

                    Comment


                    • Lupe wrote: View Post
                      This is the problem. There is no "other than Lowry" without Lowry this team is not a ECF team or a title contender. We can't "peak" beyond Lowry's best years (i.e. right now and probably for a couple more) without somehow acquiring another Lowry afterwards.

                      If anything LeBron's window might actually be LONGER than Lowry's. You can't just bank on waiting until LeBron isn't good anymore to try and win. What happens if another LeBron shows up or another team becomes the "unbeatable" one? You don't just throw in the towel like that.
                      Never did I say wait for LeBron to be done, so you can stop trying to counter arguments that haven't been made.

                      There is a post Lowry window where DD - JV - etc could still compete if we can reload quickly and plan accordingly. To say it's done after Lowry is much more "throw in the towel" than anything I've said.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • Axel wrote: View Post
                        Never did I say wait for LeBron to be done, so you can stop trying to counter arguments that haven't been made.

                        There is a post Lowry window where DD - JV - etc could still compete if we can reload quickly and plan accordingly. To say it's done after Lowry is much more "throw in the towel" than anything I've said.
                        You said, "peak beyond a presumed LeBron window", I'm not really sure how that's much different from waiting until after LeBron is done, but if that's not what you meant that's fine.

                        And I didn't say we're done after Lowry's window ends but we would most definitely get much worse. Then you're talking about building to get back to the level we were at and then trying to exceed it to make a push. And either way, even if LeBron's window is older, the core 4 in Golden State are all around DeMar's age so they won't be going anywhere for a while. That's not to mention other super-teams or super players that might arise and act as new blockades.

                        The time to act is now. Lowry is in the middle of his best season ever by a pretty damn wide margin, he's really not actually super far off from Steph's first MVP season (not last year of course). DeRozan is in the middle of his best season ever by far and is arguably the best SG in the league. You don't get this kind of opportunity very often. I say we make a move and try to maximize what we can get out of these two and get them that real third star and see if we can beat Cleveland. Millsap can be that guy if everything breaks right for us in the playoffs.
                        Last edited by Lupe; Tue Jan 3, 2017, 08:11 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Looking at players and deciding they have to take shots to contribute offensively is a little... naive, don't you think?

                          DD and Lowry need a credible roll threat and good screener to be able to operate, and ideally a second threat in the frontcourt who can make plays and shoot. JV operates well in either condition (obviously he's better as a screener, but he's also often the recipient of getting the ball on an off-ball cut after the defence rotates to the primary screen action, and is a good finisher inside). Same for Millsap (who is less of an individual threat on the roll but a solid playmaker in space which gives you real options).

                          Rather than throw away major pieces from the best offence in NBA history, to substitute in a defence first C (the effects of which we've seen with Biyombo) so we can pray that the defence gets better enough to stop LeBron James, why not actually see if the guy you get, who is pretty much the picture perfect frontcourt partner for JV, actually improves the team enough defensively that you can be good enough there that your probably even better offence can help you outscore the Cavs in the playoffs?

                          As for usage questions, with those four guys and a presumed lack of depth, you'd be running them out in waves anyway, with at least two of your top 4 guys on the court at all times, meaning they'd all get a chance to be 1st/2nd option for stretches as the primary screener or ball handler in pick actions. Everyone would get the ball plenty.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

                          Comment


                          • I don't think you want JV in this trade. Yes his lateral quickness is not ideal in today's game, but he his a great foul shooter, rebounder and screen setter. Those are all great assets in a close playoff game. Bringing in dwight would allow the opposing team to hack a howard. Also, if we could get Paul without giving up PPat, we could make for a great small ball lineup to go up against the cavs. Paul, Carrol, and PPat could all guard Lebron. I hope we can get this done. Millsap would be one of the top 3 forwards that I would try to get to fit in our system. (favours and aldridge would be the other two). Obviously to get a player of that calibre we will need to give up something substantial in return. Hopefully Bud picks up the phone, because I honestly think he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I'm interested to see how this plays out.

                            Comment


                            • I love trying to get Paul Milsap, but I am not sure how much good the trade would yield. I really think that our offense has created poor habits for our guards. Demar has terrible passing tendencies, and having a Paul Milsap running a PnR with him may be useless, because he fails to hit his bigman more times than not.

                              Comment


                              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                                You said, "peak beyond a presumed LeBron window", I'm not really sure how that's much different from waiting until after LeBron is done, but if that's not what you meant that's fine.
                                There will always be a new boogy man to replace the old.

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