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  • Lupe wrote: View Post
    Sometimes you have to take risks to get to a championship level.

    All I know is if we stand pat we're getting swept by Cleveland (if we even get that far). Defense is nowhere near good enough.
    There are some obvious ways to dramatically improve the defence already on the roster. Perhaps we should try those before deciding we need to bail on a winning formula to maybe improve the defence enough to make up for the lost offence.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      There are some obvious ways to dramatically improve the defence already on the roster. Perhaps we should try those before deciding we need to bail on a winning formula to maybe improve the defence enough to make up for the lost offence.
      I added some stuff to my post after you replied.

      Those "obvious ways" won't work. Slaw made a few very good comments on this in the "How do we fix our defense?" thread. You play conservatively on pick and rolls against a team like the Cavs who run a ton of high pick and roll (which you cannot ice, the sideline is not available to be the "help defender") with two of the most devastating on-ball players in the game in LeBron and Kyrie and you might as well just not even bother playing defense at all. Free baskets. On top of that if you don't have bigs that can get out on shooters, what are we going to do against Frye and Love? Just dare them to shoot? Recipe for disaster.

      And we're not really bailing on anything. Not trading a single key rotational piece except Bebe who Noel is better than and would be replacing. I'm not talking about trading Ross or 2Pat here or even Valanciunas. Talking about acquiring Noel. And all his attributes suggest he would fit this system excellently while having great defensive upside. These are the kind of moves that teams that don't have access to superstars in free agency have to look to make to get an edge. Hell we've already done it once with Kyle Lowry (who ended up being way better than what we thought we were trading for once he got the reigns) and it wasn't like we gave up nothing for him that pick could've been Giannis.

      Low risk, potentially very high reward, and we have 100% control of him contractually.
      Last edited by Lupe; Mon Dec 19, 2016, 09:00 AM.

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      • I don't see how Wright/Bebe would be enough for Philly to say yes.. that's a huge poo-poo platter considering they don't need another big and the guard we're hypothetically trading hasn't played a minute this season.

        BC doesn't lose trades. He finds a way to end up net neutral at least. I still think it would take someone like Ross, CoJo or Patterson to get that deal done. And I don't think Masai would agree. Our current depth is more valuable against a team like Cleveland than Noel would be (in my opinion).

        I see a team like Washington giving up more assets as they're desperate for any time of talent infusion. A second season without getting into the playoffs would be disastrous for that team.

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        • planetmars wrote: View Post
          I don't see how Wright/Bebe would be enough for Philly to say yes.. that's a huge poo-poo platter considering they don't need another big and the guard we're hypothetically trading hasn't played a minute this season.

          BC doesn't lose trades. He finds a way to end up net neutral at least. I still think it would take someone like Ross, CoJo or Patterson to get that deal done. And I don't think Masai would agree. Our current depth is more valuable against a team like Cleveland than Noel would be (in my opinion).

          I see a team like Washington giving up more assets as they're desperate for any time of talent infusion. A second season without getting into the playoffs would be disastrous for that team.
          yeah, but what assets does WAS have? And wright is better than anything Philly has right now. He would be a great guard to get for a disgruntled C who doesn't even get any playing time. Given Philly's situation with Noel, Wright and a 2nd would be decent. There are perhaps teams that could or would do better, but I really don't think WAS has anything better unless they are moving a 1st rounder.

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          • planetmars wrote: View Post
            I don't see how Wright/Bebe would be enough for Philly to say yes.. that's a huge poo-poo platter considering they don't need another big and the guard we're hypothetically trading hasn't played a minute this season.

            BC doesn't lose trades. He finds a way to end up net neutral at least. I still think it would take someone like Ross, CoJo or Patterson to get that deal done. And I don't think Masai would agree. Our current depth is more valuable against a team like Cleveland than Noel would be (in my opinion).

            I see a team like Washington giving up more assets as they're desperate for any time of talent infusion. A second season without getting into the playoffs would be disastrous for that team.
            Wright/Bebe for Noel is laughable, Philly could get 28 more offers as good as that or better. I like Bebe too, but he's played a quarter of a season as a backup now and Wright has done even less than that.

            I think Toronto's defense can get back to about #10 with the current roster if the perimeter players double down on moving their feet and keeping their man in front, just like they did in Q2 and Q3 last night, turning a double-digit deficit into a blowout win by actually playing defence on the perimeter. They've developed bad + lazy habits because they've been thinking they can outscore teams. They need to put in the work.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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            • JawsGT wrote: View Post
              yeah, but what assets does WAS have? And wright is better than anything Philly has right now. He would be a great guard to get for a disgruntled C who doesn't even get any playing time. Given Philly's situation with Noel, Wright and a 2nd would be decent. There are perhaps teams that could or would do better, but I really don't think WAS has anything better unless they are moving a 1st rounder.
              Washington would probably be willing to move multiple first rounders for a guy like Noel. They're far more desperate than Toronto would be.

              And Wright has played 0 minutes this season. No team would want him until he can prove he can play. He's only played 200+ minutes in the league. How is he proven to be better than anyone in Philly right now? Also a second round pick won't move the needle at all.

              Again I suspect at a minimum we'd be looking at CoJo and probably one of our picks to get Noel. Personally I think we already have too many centers in our rotation. I still see Sully as a center not a PF.

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              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                Wright/Bebe for Noel is laughable, Philly could get 28 more offers as good as that or better. I like Bebe too, but he's played a quarter of a season as a backup now and Wright has done even less than that.

                I think Toronto's defense can get back to about #10 with the current roster if the perimeter players double down on moving their feet and keeping their man in front, just like they did in Q2 and Q3 last night, turning a double-digit deficit into a blowout win by actually playing defence on the perimeter. They've developed bad + lazy habits because they've been thinking they can outscore teams. They need to put in the work.
                Orlando is a hard team to gauge whether the Raps actually played good defense of not. We may have been better, but to me it also looked like the Magic simply bricked a ton of good looks that other teams have been making against us. Their offensive talent is just that bad. Fournier and Ibaka as your #1 & #2 offensive options pretty much says it all.

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                • golden wrote: View Post
                  Orlando is a hard team to gauge whether the Raps actually played good defense of not. We may have been better, but to me it also looked like the Magic simply bricked a ton of good looks that other teams have been making against us. Their offensive talent is just that bad. Fournier and Ibaka as your #1 & #2 offensive options pretty much says it all.
                  Orlando has a bad offense (27th in the league), but they still do score about 98ppg on average. They scored 79 last night, after scoring 30 in the first quarter. They scored 28 total in the second half. That was a pretty great defensive effort in my opinion.

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                  • planetmars wrote: View Post
                    Washington would probably be willing to move multiple first rounders for a guy like Noel. They're far more desperate than Toronto would be.

                    And Wright has played 0 minutes this season. No team would want him until he can prove he can play. He's only played 200+ minutes in the league. How is he proven to be better than anyone in Philly right now? Also a second round pick won't move the needle at all.

                    Again I suspect at a minimum we'd be looking at CoJo and probably one of our picks to get Noel. Personally I think we already have too many centers in our rotation. I still see Sully as a center not a PF.
                    I suppose there's no way to prove it but Wright I think is better than Rodriquez or McConnell. Cojo and pick isn't a bad deal either but the Raps don't really need to make that move like you said. Plus you gotta be thinking Philly wants players more than picks, but again an asset is an asset a pick can get you a player later if thats what it takes.

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                    • golden wrote: View Post
                      Orlando is a hard team to gauge whether the Raps actually played good defense of not. We may have been better, but to me it also looked like the Magic simply bricked a ton of good looks that other teams have been making against us. Their offensive talent is just that bad. Fournier and Ibaka as your #1 & #2 offensive options pretty much says it all.
                      Meh. They missed some good looks but you can't contest everything. They also had a tonne of turnovers and couldn't even swing the ball in the third quarter the Raptors' defense was so suffocating. Yeah, it's not the Warriors, but you can only play the guys they put in front of you and Toronto stymied them and broke their will in the third quarter. When you break a team with your defense, then it was good.

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                      • planetmars wrote: View Post
                        Washington would probably be willing to move multiple first rounders for a guy like Noel. They're far more desperate than Toronto would be.

                        And Wright has played 0 minutes this season. No team would want him until he can prove he can play. He's only played 200+ minutes in the league. How is he proven to be better than anyone in Philly right now? Also a second round pick won't move the needle at all.

                        Again I suspect at a minimum we'd be looking at CoJo and probably one of our picks to get Noel. Personally I think we already have too many centers in our rotation. I still see Sully as a center not a PF.
                        Washington has Gortat signed for 2 yrs after this $25 Million and Mahinmi (who may be back any time) 3 yrs after this $48 million. They won't give up those types of assets for a RFA C.
                        If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                        • S.R. wrote: View Post
                          Wright/Bebe for Noel is laughable, Philly could get 28 more offers as good as that or better. I like Bebe too, but he's played a quarter of a season as a backup now and Wright has done even less than that.

                          I think Toronto's defense can get back to about #10 with the current roster if the perimeter players double down on moving their feet and keeping their man in front, just like they did in Q2 and Q3 last night, turning a double-digit deficit into a blowout win by actually playing defence on the perimeter. They've developed bad + lazy habits because they've been thinking they can outscore teams. They need to put in the work.
                          They've said Noel's value is fairly low. Might be laughable to you but who knows how low exactly that value is right now. And I included a draft pick btw.

                          It's not going to get back to #10. Not just as simple as moving your feet. Defense is only partially effort. Schemes and actual defensive ability/athleticism make up a larger portion of an effective defense. Players are going to get blown by, the average keep in front % in the league for guards is only something like 40%. That's the reality.

                          Using Orlando, one of the absolute worst offensive teams in the league as some sort of gauge that our defense can be top 10 when guys "try" is really just poor analysis.

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                          • People forget that Bebe and Wright themselves are former 1st round picks. Both mid-late 1sts in drafts that were just as recent (2013 for Bebe and Noel) or more recent (2015 for Wright) than Noel's. Plus we're talking about throwing in another pick. It's not some trash offer.

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                            • Just wondering. With page after page of this Noel argument going on, has anyone been convinced to change their mind?

                              Didn't think so.
                              If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                              Comment


                              • JawsGT wrote: View Post
                                yeah, but what assets does WAS have? And wright is better than anything Philly has right now. He would be a great guard to get for a disgruntled C who doesn't even get any playing time. Given Philly's situation with Noel, Wright and a 2nd would be decent. There are perhaps teams that could or would do better, but I really don't think WAS has anything better unless they are moving a 1st rounder.
                                Oubre but the salary is not enough, they'd have to throw in a second player which means Philly has to cut someone or send a contract back. They can't really send a pick, too valuable. They've committed big money to mahinmi and gortat already.
                                The other team is Portland with Crabbe. Big contract. Not sure it's tenable to wait a month before Crabbe is available. The situation in Philly is bad.
                                Delon/bebe might be the best deal on the table. Philly was interested in rozier for example and when you compare stats, delon projects to be around his level at two positions. Bebe could be moved to a third team like Charlotte for lamb or bellinelli. Not sure. Perhaps Kilpatrick/levert, something on those lines is possible.
                                I'd be interested to ship out Carroll for roco as well.

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