Everything 2018 Off Season

[A.I]

Off the ball play doesn't mean you have to shoot the ball right away man. If DeRozan catches the ball at the 3PT line and his man closes out, he is 10x more dangerous to the defense than OG Anunoby in that situation. Hell DeRozan beats SET defenses off the dribble. Can you imagine attacking a close out with 2 defenders already pulled away from his area of the floor by a Leonard drive? That's easy money.

Again basketball isn't so simple that you can only have one guy on the floor who's best with the ball in their hands.

Demar’s strength is to drive or shoot mid range. Why would team’s close out to the point where he has the ability to do so? You let him shoot, which is what the Cavs did.

[jimmie]

Offense was not the problem in the Cavs series. Kawhi wouldn’t make the difference on offense. Demar is an all world player on that end. Kawhi is all universe when healthy. Talk of best fit with Kawhi on O is not the argument that needs to be made.

Alternative argument: adding Kawhi would make Toronto’s D better is a good one. But it stands as an argument to add him regardless of who is going out.

Also, this idea that the team as constructed and with Leonard added wouldn’t be just as good with Lowry out and Fred in at PG is not one I can get behind. I don’t see the gap between KL and VV as that much of a deal breaker.

And still, to me, with the demand of an inclusion of some combo of Siakam, OG, Wright, and Fred, no matter whether its KL or DD out, its a bad deal for Toronto unless a re-sign has been discussed prior. Roster as constructed has an excellent chance to win the East without a trade, and even with Kawhi, that’s the ceiling. Why give up those assets in that case?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

No I just think the arguments for that being the better option are very weak. Basically it comes down to some people thinking Kawhi will only stay if DeMar is here to be his buddy.

I think he wants to be the man, which means he has to usurp DeMar, and that DeMar is not a good fit with him on the court, while also being the easiest piece to build an offer around due to talent, age, and contract status.

So yeah, just do the deal that makes the fit as easy as possible, gives us as good an on-court team as possible and sacrifices the least amount of youth in case he does walk. Then Masai has a year to convince Kawhi to stay. And frankly the emergence of younger guys if they can take a step forward is just as good, if not better, for convincing Kawhi to stay. Let's him be confident he has good teammates who can fit beside him for years, while also firmly positioning him as the franchise cornerstone going forward.

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First bold. It isn't weak, relationships matter a lot in this league. That's just the reality of it.

Second bold. Not sure what this even means, Kawhi is clearly better than DeRozan and not just in the way Lowry is (lower volume but higher impact) he provides higher impact at high volume. It's not like DeMar is a malcontent like Kyrie who's going to be unhappy because he isn't option 1 all the time.

[Primer]

I think it's that they'd rather trade the DeMar + ____ package than the JV + ____ package. Not that they wouldn't do the latter.

Which is insane to me. Because even if you don't like the fit with DeMar he increases the chances of Kawhi staying because he is an all-NBA, all-star, Team USA guy with an excellent rep with players and coaches around the league (and sorry but JV just fucking isn't). Also if you were looking to make more deals in 2019-20 (assuming you retain Kawhi), DeMar gets you more back in a trade than JV does probably.

That is your opinion but most of us disagree. There is a low chance Kawhi would stay and DD being here or not doesn't effect that. There is zero evidence Kawhi likes DD, wants to play with DD, is friends with DD, any of that. What we do know is he wants to play in LA, that's a fact.

So our best chance of convincing him to stay is putting a complementary team around him and winning so much that he feels he has to stay. JV is our best rebounder and only reliable center, we don't have a replacement if we send him out. You can replace all of DD's offensive production by giving those shots to Kawhi and to a lesser extent Lowry. A JV package would almost certainly need to include OG, a DD package probably wouldn't.

I think the Raptors would be a much better team with Kawhi by sending out DD + Poeltl/Wright + 2019 1st, then they would be sending out JV + Wright + OG + 2019 1st.

If SA would take a package of JV + Wright + 2019 1st I'd take it in a heartbeat and just hope Poeltl is serviceable as a starter. If they demand OG then the Derozan package looks a lot more favorable.

I'd still do whatever to get Kawhi, I just want to give up the least amount possible and I value JV + Kawhi more highly than DD + Kawhi due to fit.

The fact there are so many different ways to get this trade done is probably a huge reason it hasn't been completed. Masai and Buford probably have to go back and forth 100 times before they agree on something.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

That is your opinion but most of us disagree. There is a low chance Kawhi would stay and DD being here or not doesn't effect that. There is zero evidence Kawhi likes DD, wants to play with DD, is friends with DD, any of that. What we do know is he wants to play in LA, that's a fact.

So our best chance of convincing him to stay is putting a complementary team around him and winning so much that he feels he has to stay. JV is our best rebounder and only reliable center, we don't have a replacement if we send him out. You can replace all of DD's offensive production by giving those shots to Kawhi and to a lesser extent Lowry. A JV package would almost certainly need to include OG, a DD package probably wouldn't.

I think the Raptors would be a much better team with Kawhi by sending out DD + Poeltl/Wright + 2019 1st, then they would be sending out JV + Wright + OG + 2019 1st.

If SA would take a package of JV + Wright + 2019 1st I'd take it in a heartbeat and just hope Poeltl is serviceable as a starter. If they demand OG then the Derozan package looks a lot more favorable.

I'd still do whatever to get Kawhi, I just want to give up the least amount possible and I value JV + Kawhi more highly than DD + Kawhi due to fit.

The fact there are so many different ways to get this trade done is probably a huge reason it hasn't bee completed. Masai and Buford probably have to go back and forth 100 times before they agree on something.

Well obviously if the JV deal requires OG you pick the one that doesn't.

The JV deal I proposed didn't have OG in it. My point is I'm fine with either trade as long as Lowry, OG, and our future picks (unprotected) aren't moved.

And yeah we don't know exactly what DeMar/Kawhi's relationship is but we do know that:

1.) Stars tend to want to play with other stars, especially when Team USA/All-NBA is involved
2.) DeMar has built great relationships here with a number of different players

[Primer]

Well obviously if the JV deal requires OG you pick the one that doesn't.

The JV deal I proposed didn't have OG in it. My point is I'm fine with either trade as long as Lowry, OG, and our future picks (unprotected) aren't moved.

I think everyone here agrees on that. So it's up to Masai and Buford to figure out what that package is.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I think everyone here agrees on that. So it's up to Masai and Buford to figure out what that package is.

That doesn't mean we can't propose our own ideas for packages man.

Also I forgot to mention what I said earlier which is that it's going to be pretty awkward trying to sell Kawhi on being loyal to us when we just traded a guy who was loyal to us for a decade for him.

[white men can't jump]

First bold. It isn't weak, relationships matter a lot in this league. That's just the reality of it.

Second bold. Not sure what this even means, Kawhi is clearly better than DeRozan and not just in the way Lowry is (lower volume but higher impact) he provides higher impact at high volume. It's not like DeMar is a malcontent like Kyrie who's going to be unhappy because he isn't option 1 all the time.

You don't know what it means? He doesn't want to be somewhere with an established franchise player and face of the franchise. If that shit mattered, LeBron signing in LA would make it more likely he wants to go there. Instead rumours came out that maybe he'd prefer the Clippers so he could be the man there.

You know what matters more than relationships? Egos. You need to accommodate his ego as best as possible. DeMar is too big in Toronto because of the fans loving him for being a loyal long-time Raptor. The narrative could be as much about DeMar sacrificing as it is about Kawhi being our new superstar, if not more. However if DeMar is traded and Kawhi takes us back into a deep playoff run (especially a finals appearance) where we perform better, the narrative is all about him being the best player in our history.

Kawhi doesn't want to come be our Paul George to DeMar's Russell Westbrook. He wants to be the LeBron of a team.

Now if the ego angle turns some fans off from wanting him, that's a different discussion.

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[Shaolin Fantastic]

You don't know what it means? He doesn't want to be somewhere with an established franchise player and face of the franchise. If that shit mattered, LeBron signing in LA would make it more likely he wants to go there. Instead rumours came out that maybe he'd prefer the Clippers so he could be the man there.

You know what matters more than relationships? Egos. You need to accommodate his ego as best as possible. DeMar is too big in Toronto because of the fans loving him for being a loyal long-time Raptor. The narrative could be as much about DeMar sacrificing as it is about Kawhi being our new superstar, if not more. However if DeMar is traded and Kawhi takes us back into a deep playoff run (especially a finals appearance) where we perform better, the narrative is all about him being the best player in our history.

Kawhi doesn't want to come be our Paul George to DeMar's Russell Westbrook. He wants to be the LeBron of a team.

Now if the ego angle turns some fans off from wanting him, that's a different discussion.

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You're stating all of those things as facts when none of them are.

[white men can't jump]

You're stating all of those things as facts when none of them are.

Says the guy saying DeMar is the only possible thing that can convince him to stay. Fucking hypocrite.

*There have been lots of stories about how he wants a big market and to improve his brand. That is a fact. Sharing a market with another star can make that harder. We are also, although a big market, still a non-American market and so at a disadvantage.

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[Shaolin Fantastic]

Says the guy saying DeMar is the only possible thing that can convince him to stay. Fucking hypocrite.

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I didn't say that.

[jimmie]

Says the guy saying DeMar is the only possible thing that can convince him to stay. Fucking hypocrite.

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How about nothing is going to convince him to stay? How about we start there, because based on everything out there, that’s closer to the truth than anything being discussed here.

Would anyone make the trade - either JV or DD as the key piece, or KL even, plus 2 or 3 of Siakam/Poeltl/OG/Wright - if you knew right now that’s it was a rental? No? Because it takes an awful lot of positivity to believe Leonard might stay past one year. Plus he hasnt played a game in what, a year? I personally would have a lot of Qs about his ability to stay healthy, especially when being asked to give up what many believed a few weeks ago to be the best young depth of any team in the NBA.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Also with DeMar and Kawhi you have a situation where when they're both on the floor another team can't put their best defensive wing on DD. Also it allows you to have at least 2 all-NBA guys on the floor for the entire game basically (two of Kyle, DeMar, Kawhi).

[white men can't jump]

I didn't say that.

You said lots of things and pretty much none of them having any evidence to support them in any way.

So what is a fact? Is everything you say gospel? Maybe Kawhi should avoid Toronto to not have to compete with your ego.

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[Shaolin Fantastic]

You said lots of things and pretty much none of them having any evidence to support them in any way.

So what is a fact? Is everything you say gospel? Maybe Kawhi should avoid Toronto to not have to compete with your ego.

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Well a lot of the things I said are facts such as DeMar being an all-star, All-NBA and Team USA guy as well as DeMar being known as a guy who builds great relationships with players on his team and around the league. Based on those facts I'm making an assumption (this is now an opinion) that retaining DeMar would increase the likelihood we could retain Kawhi Leonard, because relationships matter a lot in the NBA (another fact) and DeMar has shown to be better at forming these kind of relationships than guys like Kyle and JV from what we know.

Not really sure what my ego has to do with it, but I'm just sharing my thoughts on the situation like anyone else. I was just bringing up another possibility for a Kawhi trade since everyone kind of zeroed in on the DeRozan one (which I'm on board with btw --- hell I was one of the first to suggest it --- this is just another, possibly better option).