#FireCasey

[raptors999]

Lou Williams dropped 10% off his career numbers in Philly and ATL when he came here. Again: plummeting.

Scolas decade under different coachs and team probably means nothing. He's been a terrible passer in disguise.

[MixxAOR]

Cory Joseph's raw numbers increased because of minutes but his per36, per100 and Assist% are all down from last year.

[Wild-ling#1]

Scole went from 16 to 6

You're saying Scola's assists fell from 16 to 6/100 possessions? I'm not sure what you're looking at ...

He's 37 ... and his minutes are up, he's starting, shooting more (with a .421 3 pt %!), his assists are down (3.3 - 1.9/ 100 poss.) as are his rebounds (16.3 - 12.7/100).

I think it's only fair to leave Carroll out of this, this early and in all the circumstances. But ... as you will ...

[raptors999]

You're saying Scola's assists fell from 16 to 6/100 possessions? I'm not sure what you're looking at ...

He's 37 ... and his minutes are up, he's starting, shooting more (with a .421 3 pt %!), his assists are down (3.3 - 1.9/ 100 poss.) as are his rebounds (16.3 - 12.7/100).

I think it's only fair to leave Carroll out of this, this early and in all the circumstances. But ... as you will ...

Finger slipped - Asst% per 100 poss. fell from over 10 every year to 6.9 this year

[Wild-ling#1]

Finger slipped - Asst% per 100 poss. fell from over 10 every year to 6.9 this year

Well, that's not /100, but okay. And though he's not himself been injured, passing to Biyombo and Ross isn't ideal, obviously. There have been adjustments (like his improved 3 pt. shooting - like Lowry). But whatever ...

[golden]

I'm plainly not arguing that. I'm arguing that Lowry's assists have not plummeted (as against a statement that all Raptors players assist numbers plummet under Casey).

And I've been looking at ast/100 possessions. I understand they offer a more accurate representation of a player's tendencies than the (raw) ast/game stat (where a drop in MPG could imply an alteration in Lowry's style of play, under Casey, that has not occurred - until this year ... so far ... and in all the circumstances).

You have to normalize for USG and look at the AST%/USG% ratio. As your USG goes up, your assists will go up, simply from having the ball in your hands more. That should be obvious. Lowry is definitely down from his Rockets years.

Lowry's last season in Houston: AST% / USG% = 32.3 / 22.0 = 1.46.
Second last season, the ratio was: 1.56
Lowry's current season in TOR: AST% / USG% = 30.8 / 26.8 = 1.15

Definitely down. Vasquez (especially last season) and Rudy Gay (especially before he got traded) are great examples of AST/USG ratios plummeting under Casey. There is an un-deniable statistical trend there: before, during and after Casey. Translation: Pass less & shoot more

[DanH]

Well, that's not /100, but okay. And though he's not himself been injured, passing to Biyombo and Ross isn't ideal, obviously. There have been adjustments (like his improved 3 pt. shooting - like Lowry). But whatever ...

AST% already dropped to 8.3% before JV went down and well before Ross was starting. Meanwhile his 20% usage is only a slight drop from his recent norms.

Sure, there are loads of reasons why everyone has their assist rates plateau at best and plummet at worst. But the chief reason among them is that this team has become more and more focused on individual play and less and less likely to move the ball, no matter what players (Carroll, Joseph, Vasquez, Scola) with good passing resumes are brought in.

[raptors999]

AST% already dropped to 8.3% before JV went down and well before Ross was starting. Meanwhile his 20% usage is only a slight drop from his recent norms.

Sure, there are loads of reasons why everyone has their assist rates plateau at best and plummet at worst. But the chief reason among them is that this team has become more and more focused on individual play and less and less likely to move the ball, no matter what players (Carroll, Joseph, Vasquez, Scola) with good passing resumes are brought in.

Rondo under Casey would be funny

[Wild-ling#1]

AST% already dropped to 8.3% before JV went down and well before Ross was starting. Meanwhile his 20% usage is only a slight drop from his recent norms.

Sure, there are loads of reasons why everyone has their assist rates plateau at best and plummet at worst. But the chief reason among them is that this team has become more and more focused on individual play and less and less likely to move the ball, no matter what players (Carroll, Joseph, Vasquez, Scola) with good passing resumes are brought in.

But I think we expected that. No one is arguing that the Raptors wouldn't have to make big strides to become a better passing team - and that includes JV being worked in to the offense as well as Carroll and Scola. And we were told this was going to take a back-seat to improving team defense anyway.

But we'll be starting from scratch (as JV finds his legs) in a month or so. It's a shame. I guess those of us who thought we couldn't progress (under Casey) will remain unmoved by our misfortunes early this season on this account, anyway). But I'm pretty down about it. Not down generally - they weathered things quite well, I think. But disappointed, nonetheless ...

[CB4Champ]

Sigh, Casey, You could be a great coach

seems you have issues with Repping the Whole Squad? or Movement ball?

[Wild-ling#1]

You have to normalize for USG and look at the AST%/USG% ratio. As your USG goes up, your assists will go up, simply from having the ball in your hands more. That should be obvious. Lowry is definitely down from his Rockets years.

Lowry's last season in Houston: AST% / USG% = 32.3 / 22.0 = 1.46.
Second last season, the ratio was: 1.56
Lowry's current season in TOR: AST% / USG% = 30.8 / 26.8 = 1.15

Definitely down. Vasquez (especially last season) and Rudy Gay (especially before he got traded) are great examples of AST/USG ratios plummeting under Casey. There is an un-deniable statistical trend there: before, during and after Casey. Translation: Pass less & shoot more

You're comparing Lowry's best year in Houston to Lowry's worst year in Toronto - this year, which is the only outlier - and only 26 games old. His assists were off slightly last year ... his injury/burnout year you'll recall.

But if I even suggest any theory of causation for any (negative) phenomenon (if Lowry's shooting more this year is simply a negative phenomenon), other than "it's all Casey's fault!", I am told I have "strayed from reality". Am a Casey "homer".

But according to the B-ball Reference's ast/100 possessions figures, three out of Lowry's four best assist years have come in Toronto. Under Casey.

So as for any nuanced discussion of Scola's ups-and-downs ... maybe another time ...

[raptors999]

His role is different then inprevious year when he was primarily a score first PG.

[Miekenstien]

Didn't think we were solely looking at passing, but to say that a coach deserves the credit for everything with the development of JV is ridiculous.

so the opposite is also true and everyone can begrudgingly give him his due. thanks for that

[Axel]

so the opposite is also true and everyone can begrudgingly give him his due. thanks for that

Agreed, 100% on the player is also false. It's determining what exactly is Casey's due that is impossible. Coaching is an important factor but Casey isn't the only coach - there are assistants and national team coaches that are in play there too.

[Axel]

But if I even suggest any theory of causation for any (negative) phenomenon (if Lowry's shooting more this year is simply a negative phenomenon), other than "it's all Casey's fault!", I am told I have "strayed from reality". Am a Casey "homer".

Because your defences of Casey have become more outlandish.

The topic in question was: JV doesn't get many assists and most feel that this isn't a skill that can be assessed for JV since assist numbers under Casey are low for all players.

You then go on explaining that Lowry's assist numbers are at least comparable to his previous seasons - so you are clinging to the one player that has maintained assists under Casey and ignoring the facts that support the original point. You then make up excuses for Lowry's bad numbers this season, starting with injuries (even though his numbers were equal before injuries) and then sample size (even though the numbers have been consistent all year).

So while you continually beat the Lowry assist numbers drum (a debatable result) it is fairly irrelevant to the original point, which is greatly supported by the decline in team assists in each of the last 3 years and the decline of individual assist rates for pretty much every other player.

Choosing to argue the statistical outlier while completely ignoring all other stats, in defence of Casey, without addressing the actual point of the discussion does make you seem like the ultimate Casey apologist.