Everything Derozan

[Joey]

Why wouldn't he want a max contract if that's something he's being offered?

And this'll be the hardest negotiating position for Masai. This is actually not that good a free agent year, and like 25 teams will have huge capspace. As good as Masai has been, he's still at the mercy of what happens on the market. He didn't pay Carroll $15M because he wanted to and because it's a great deal. It's because Detroit offered $14M. Being unrestricted is a huge factor in bidding. Why wouldn't DeMar's be affected? There's so many teams with capspace and few good UFAs.

Masai has done great in most contract talks where he didn't have to deal with a lot of issues in the market. Lowry played a deep position and was in a year with lots of other big names. Even then it was what a lot of people thought was the higher end of a likely fair deal between the sides. Turned out to be a bargain. Basically lucky timing. He extended Jonas and Ross clearly to avoid the unpredictability of the free agent market. Again, the 2016 crop is actually looking pretty weak. Could've been a disaster to go in with those guys as RFAs...the likely outcome could be you end up striking out on big names and end up having to overpay your own guys. Cojo people are looking at as a good deal, but that's still $7M per year for a guy who's basically a career third stringer. Don't think other teams were looking at him that highly.

Masai has done well in contract talks, but again, he's also done about as well as the market has let him. He's still not the magician there he is with value in trades, for example.

Fair points, I just don't see any scenario where Demar gets offered Max. Unless of course he starts playing like a Max. In which case, by all means.

Demars Max is completely different than a Chandler Parsons or Gordon Hayward Max, as you know. So to think the market will will pay Demar right around the same price as Durant, I just don't see it.

[Wild-ling#1]

I think the bold is a cop-out, though it is why blame has been shared with Casey.

However, even when you're the #1 guy, the alpha dog, the man, the player holding the coach's scorer role card, there's a difference between being the go-to guy and being a selfish ball hog.

There was also an argument that DeRozan could actually be a better scorer by playing less selfishly, as involving his teammates more would help open up better opportunities for him - ie: let shooters spread the floor to open the lane for penetration, less double-teams to face, etc...

But in a sense, I think we saw last night that there can be times when you're almost driven to Demar ISO ball. Our defense had kept us in the game, but we still had to score. Demar did avoid the long 2 .. .but still took the matter into his own hands ... because TRoss and Scola weren't even on the floor, Demarre was cold and Ppat was unwilling. Maybe Jonas could have been used more, I'll give you that. But it seems they were paying him very close attention. He certainly has been used more this season so far ...

You'd rather we could just move the ball and use multiple threats ... but I don't know that it is always possible. This year or last. And if Kyle is exhausted on a back-to-back night (or injured, God forbid) ... well ..

[edit I don't want to go so far as to say that using multiple threats is ever impossible. And remember the Thunder were giving DeMar a pretty good match-upI understand, with Waiters, at key moments, so ... there is that, too ... ]

[hotfuzz]

Pro-Derozan Outliers: Christian and Special1. These guys are hardcore DD fans, and you gotta respect the ardentness of their fandom...

Anti-Derozan Outliers: Snooch and OldSkoolCool. These guys are hardcore Detractors, and you gotta respect the persistense of their feelings toward DD as well. Lol

special1 is still OK, but I don't think I've ever seen christian say ANYTHING remotely bad about demar. Not once!

[white men can't jump]

Fair points, I just don't see any scenario where Demar gets offered Max. Unless of course he starts playing like a Max. In which case, by all means.

Demars Max is completely different than a Chandler Parsons or Gordon Hayward Max, as you know. So to think the market will will pay Demar right around the same price as Durant, I just don't see it.

You're looking at it the wrong way. A player's value is in no way relative to his peers when it comes to free agent signings. It has much more to do with supply and demand. This year there will be a shitload of teams with tons of capspace. And they will almost all want to fill that capspace with the biggest names they can find. DeMar looks like he'll be a top 10 free agent this season, and maybe top 5 if we're talking unrestricted.

There are very few big names, and very many teams who will want to get them. Think of it like 2010 and how many bad deals were signed. No teams said "oh, well we didn't get LeBron so we better not offer other guys the max". Now there will be even more teams with even more capspace, and even fewer big names.

*IT just seems very hard to believe he wouldn't get offered the max or so close to it it might as well be by some team out there. I basically think the only way we get him for less is if he voluntarily re-signs at a discount to stay, where he'd likely know he could get more money by leaving.

[Joey]

special1 is still OK, but I don't think I've ever seen christian say ANYTHING remotely bad about demar. Not once!

There's enough people saying bad things. Not sure why he would need to. Lol

[Joey]

You're looking at it the wrong way. A player's value is in no way relative to his peers when it comes to free agent signings. It has much more to do with supply and demand. This year there will be a shitload of teams with tons of capspace. And they will almost all want to fill that capspace with the biggest names they can find. DeMar looks like he'll be a top 10 free agent this season, and maybe top 5 if we're talking unrestricted.

There are very few big names, and very many teams who will want to get them. Think of it like 2010 and how many bad deals were signed. No teams said "oh, well we didn't get LeBron so we better not offer other guys the max". Now there will be even more teams with even more capspace, and even fewer big names.

I understand all of that, but I just don't see Demar getting offered $25-28M. Or whatever it is.

[Joey]

*IT just seems very hard to believe he wouldn't get offered the max or so close to it it might as well be by some team out there. I basically think the only way we get him for less is if he voluntarily re-signs at a discount to stay, where he'd likely know he could get more money by leaving.

I could actually see this happening. I mean, probably wouldn't leave $5M/per on the table, but if the difference $1-2M/per, I could see us getting the home town discount.

But you're right, if he's offered the Max, theres no doubt he will take it.

[slaw]

If you think the allstar season demar and last season Demar are the same, I don't know what to tell you. I thought you had a better eye for the game.

He is proving us wrong by doing exactly what has been asked for a long time

But he's been trending that way and making those changes since 2013-14. It's not like flipping a light switch and it's not as though the trend line moves relentlessly in one direction but there is clearly pre-2013 Derozan and post-2013 Derozan.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

But in a sense, I think we saw last night that there can be times when you're almost driven to Demar ISO ball. Patterson, TRoss and Carroll were all cold with the 3. Our defense had kept us in the game, but we still had to score. Demar did avoid the long 2 .. .but still took the matter into his own hands ... because TRoss and Scola weren't even on the floor, Demarre was cold and Ppat was unwilling. Maybe Jonas could have been used more, I'll give you that. But it seems they were paying him very close attention. He certainly has been used more this season so far ...

You'd rather we could just move the ball and use multiple threats ... but I don't know that it is always possible. This year or last. And if Kyle is exhausted on a back-to-back night (or injured, God forbid) ... well ..

Yes, you absolutely need to establish multiple contributors each game. Even the threat of other players can be enough to make a difference, in terms of giving the primary scorers more room to operate.

Playing selfish hero-ball where a player or two consistently try to score 1-on-5, as we saw most of last season and certainly in the playoffs, simply doesn't work.

Obviously there's still a time and place for an ISO-play, especially when your passing has created a mismatch. The offensive system should just always be geared around passing and team play, in order to create mismatches and high-efficiency scoring opportunities.

[SkywalkerAC]

I disagree.

I am one of the 'haters' from the past several seasons, and I've never suggested that. In fact, I've made it known that my biggest frustration has been the glimpses of an all-around team-first player that he's teased us with, which made it seem more like an unwillingness to play the 'right' way as opposed to not having the talent/ability to do so.

I don't know that I saw you take part in a lot of this offseason's argument, but good on you for that stance. A lot of what I was up against was the "He hasn't changed in 6 seasons, why would he now?" attitude.

[SkywalkerAC]

But he's been trending that way and making those changes since 2013-14. It's not like flipping a light switch and it's not as though the trend line moves relentlessly in one direction but there is clearly pre-2013 Derozan and post-2013 Derozan.

Yup. And the argument went that the experience being thrust into the #1-scorer role before being truly capable would pay dividends in terms of handling double-teams and generally increasing his efficiency when his usage was reined in on a better team, and lo and behold...

[SkywalkerAC]

Anyone else wish this thread hadn't been closed so we'd have a better record of what went down?

[special1]

Wouldn't it be "proving his doubters right" if the reason he's playing better is him limiting what all the "doubters" brought up (that were also supported by a sh*t ton of statistics, articles and the eye test)?

Haha

A spin if I ever read one.

Guys, please stop.

The whole crux of the doubters arguments was that it was impossible for Demar to change/adjust (given all the years of "evidence" you guys had).

We (his supporters) hoped he would continue to improve. You (the doubters) wanted him traded or just let to walk in the off-season.....

It's delusional to suggest that you were right when many of you wanted him gone BEFORE the season even started! You were wrong... Very wrong! We knew he could do it.... You doubted.


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[CalgaryRapsFan]

I don't know that I saw you take part in a lot of this offseason's argument, but good on you for that stance. A lot of what I was up against was the "He hasn't changed in 6 seasons, why would he now?" attitude.

I think that speaks to the seeming unwillingness of DeRozan to play a team-first game, despite the success that he and the team had when he did play that way. In the past, he just seemed concerned about padding his own stats and being 'the guy', more than worrying about the team winning; or worse yet, he actually believed that playing hero-ball was how he would best help the team win. In that case, it was more a question of his BB-IQ and whether or not he'd ever 'get it'.

[Wild-ling#1]

Better get Casey on the forums to bring a culture change.

Now That's funny ...