Everything Derozan

[slaw]

After watching the ball stick on offence for the last few years, simply cannot agree.

If his assists go up (or stay the same) but his usage comes down, you can't say that's the same playing style.

The ball is finally moving, which is what so many of us have been screaming for these past few years. Only a select few players are talented enough to excel in a ball stopper role, DD isn't in that class (and even those in that class struggle to win).

I didn't say it's the same playing style (though his usage is in line with the past two seasons, so I don't take the point there). My point has been, and is, that starting with the 2013-14 season Derozan has adjusted his game in a variety of ways and that he's continuing that trend early in the season. He is still going to take midrange jumpers and hunker down when he shouldn't and stop the ball now and again cause that's what he's always done and a player doesn't transform overnight but he's trending in the right direction. That's a positive and it's not something that started 4 games ago....

[Joey]

Actually, the whole crux of the argument was based around the debate of whether he'll be worth a max contract, which is what many fear he'll command as a free agent, and has not shown any sign of being worth (even in these early season games).

That was certainly part of it, but he's also not ever shown any sign of wanting a Max Contract either. Thats just pure speculation.
And with everything Masai has managed in terms of contracts, I'm not sure why this is such a massive holding point.

[mcHAPPY]

The whole DD is a "new player" is just some posters trying to cover up the fact that DD has proven them wrong once again.

Lets not act like DD wasn't playing out of his mind last year for last 2 months after being healthy.

The only difference is Masai has brought players(Carroll) that better complement his game. Which make him harder to guard.

DD has just continued from where he left off at the end of the regular season.

You have yet to figure out that DD getting his is irrelevant to me and a lot of other posters.

It is a team game.

How demar performs in the context of the team is first priority.

Any scrub can get their own.

Who can do it and help their team win? Who can do it consistently over an 82 game and playoff grind?

BTW when DD was healthy for the last 2 months of the season the team was .500. But at least DD got his.

[mcHAPPY]

DD proving his doubters wrong. Where have I seen this before.

He is proving us wrong by doing exactly what has been asked for a long time.

[Chr1s1anL]

You have it completely backwards.

Shall we recap what the 'haters' have been saying for years?

1) Attack the basket and don't shy away from contact (from the early years) --> the way he attacks the basket and deliberately looks to draw contact, so he can make a living at the charity stripe, is the polar opposite from the marshmallow-soft way he played early in his career

2) Post-up smaller defenders --> this is one of his greatest strengths that he still doesn't rely on consistently enough, but when he does - as we've seen the past few nights - he can be incredibly effective shooting high-efficiency shots (while drawing and-1's - see #1)

3) Play facilitator instead of hero-ball --> it's evident in every measure - eye test, basic stats, advanced stats, game results - that DeRozan, his teammates, and the team in general are all better when he involves his teammates effectively, instead of only forcing his own game

4) Contribute in other ways than scoring --> when he commits to defense, rebounding and facilitating (see #3), he has a much broader and much more positive impact on the game, even when his own shot isn't falling efficiently

5) Don't rely on the worst shot in basketball and/or force bad/contested shots --> in his best games throughout his career, and for most of this season, him being 'good DeRozan' consistently has been the most impressive improvement we've seen from him; when he resorts to selfish hero-ball, 'bad DeRozan' can look like a d-leaguer that shoots his team right out of games (by wasting possessions and taking his teammates out of the game due to lack of offensive involvement)


--

It's really the same as Casey. His detractors argued that the scramble defensive strategy was horrendous and didn't play to the strengths of his personnel. The new defensive system is the exact opposite, allowing players - both perimeter and inside (especially JV) - to play to their strengths, which has made the entire roster look better and resulted in a top-tier looking defense get established so quickly out of the gate.

One of my pet peeves in this early season is listening to media talk about "players buying into Casey's defensive system this season" as the reason for the defensive turnaround. That's complete sh!t. The players are no more committed to the system this season; the system has changed and the new system is committed to the players on the roster.

Casey, like DeRozan, hasn't proven his doubters wrong. Instead, by having success with the changes made (the very changes that the 'haters' have been clamoring for), they're both proving the doubters correct. Us 'haters' are just enjoying the success the team is having, with both Casey and DeRozan, without the need to needle fellow posters with tripe like #ProveEM

1) DD has been top in the league at getting to line for the last couple years now.

2)DD has always posted up small defenders but, teams started putting longer defenders on him to take that away. Now that we have a legit SF they cant do that as much. So DD is actually guarded with other SG

3) If you can find me these stats compared to last year. I would really like to see that. DD playmaking has been improving the last 3 years. Him having high assist games isn't new to me. We still run a lot of iso but, now its only limited to 3 players(JV, DD, KLow). The other players rarely get isos. Compared to last year where pretty much everyone was allowed.

4) Every since Casey has gotten here his gotten better at D every year.

5) DD has still taken those shots this year. Its apart of his game. It sets up his pump fakes and him being fouled while shooting.

[mcHAPPY]

Yeah, but, as I've noted before, Derozan hasn't been the same player for the last 4-5 seasons. In his All-Star year, he changed his game significantly shooting more threes than he had in the previous two years combined, getting to the line 200 more times than the previous season, dishing out 100 more assists, and upping his AST% nearly 10 points. Those were drastic, material changes to his game. Last year he largely sustained this trend but his shooting was so bad it coloured everything else. His early season numbers are tracking pretty close to the last two seasons and the only thing that's really hurting his performance right now is the fact he is shooting worse than his career average which should tick up a couple percentage points.

For example, people are talking about his passing but his per game assist number is 4.2 vs. 4.0 in 2013-14 and is AST% is 20.7 vs. 18.9.

He's not a perfect player and you're going to have to live the mid-range jumpers and the not so great shooting percentages but he has absolutely been adapting his game over the last couple of seasons and this season is a continuation of that trend.

If you think the allstar season demar and last season Demar are the same, I don't know what to tell you. I thought you had a better eye for the game.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

The whole crux of the argument this offseason was that he was/wasn't smart and coachable and talented enough to shift his game.

I disagree.

I am one of the 'haters' from the past several seasons, and I've never suggested that. In fact, I've made it known that my biggest frustration has been the glimpses of an all-around team-first player that he's teased us with, which made it seem more like an unwillingness to play the 'right' way as opposed to not having the talent/ability to do so.

[mcHAPPY]

That BS. You praise effort and dedication - whether it pays off or not.

But now that it seems like it might actually be paying off (and he's got better team-mates to assist, etc.) you want to spin it that you were wholly justified in insisting he should have been better, sooner.

Just give the man some credit and enjoy the wins, why don't you? Is there any point in retrospective Demar bashing ...?

You don't praise stupidity.

All sorts of stats to show DD despite all his best intentions and hard work was like a truck spinning wheels stuck in the mud.

[SkywalkerAC]

As a labelled "hater", I will agree with this post.

But it's been 5 games. We've seen stretches like this from DeMar before, and it hasn't lasted. If DeRozan can play this level of intelligent basketball for a full season, then we can confidently conclude that DeMar has improved (in his decision-making).

Also, we should distinguish those who said that DeRozan couldn't improve period, vs. those who said he couldn't improve specific aspects of his game. I mean, is anyone still holding out hope that he'll become a 35% 3-pt shooter?

31.5%!

[Joey]

I disagree.

I am one of the 'haters' from the past several seasons, and I've never suggested that. In fact, I've made it known that my biggest frustration has been the glimpses of an all-around team-first player that he's teased us with, which made it seem more like an unwillingness to play the 'right' way as opposed to not having the talent/ability to do so.

But those supporting Demar generally maintained that it was a system issue, and that if Demar were given a better system, and better teammates, he would adjust and be a team player; he was simply having too much asked of him.

That point was generally countered with "He won't adjust, he will continue to play Selfish basketball and jack up dumb shots because thats who he is."

I say generally for both, because there are always exceptions (I won't name names). LOL

[mcHAPPY]

But those supporting Demar generally maintained that it was a system issue, and that if Demar were given a better system, and better teammates, he would adjust and be a team player; he was simply having too much asked of him.

That point was generally countered with "He won't adjust, he will continue to play Selfish basketball and jack up dumb shots because thats who he is."

I say generally, because there are always exceptions (I won't name names). LOL

You should name names.

Too much passive aggressiveness around here with no accountability.

[white men can't jump]

That was certainly part of it, but he's also not ever shown any sign of wanting a Max Contract either. Thats just pure speculation.
And with everything Masai has managed in terms of contracts, I'm not sure why this is such a massive holding point.

Why wouldn't he want a max contract if that's something he's being offered?

And this'll be the hardest negotiating position for Masai. This is actually not that good a free agent year, and like 25 teams will have huge capspace. As good as Masai has been, he's still at the mercy of what happens on the market. He didn't pay Carroll $15M because he wanted to and because it's a great deal. It's because Detroit offered $14M. Being unrestricted is a huge factor in bidding. Why wouldn't DeMar's be affected? There's so many teams with capspace and few good UFAs.

Masai has done great in most contract talks where he didn't have to deal with a lot of issues in the market. Lowry played a deep position and was in a year with lots of other big names. Even then it was what a lot of people thought was the higher end of a likely fair deal between the sides. Turned out to be a bargain. Basically lucky timing. He extended Jonas and Ross clearly to avoid the unpredictability of the free agent market. Again, the 2016 crop is actually looking pretty weak. Could've been a disaster to go in with those guys as RFAs...the likely outcome could be you end up striking out on big names and end up having to overpay your own guys. Cojo people are looking at as a good deal, but that's still $7M per year for a guy who's basically a career third stringer. Don't think other teams were looking at him that highly.

Masai has done well in contract talks, but again, he's also done about as well as the market has let him. He's still not the magician there he is with value in trades, for example.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

But those supporting Demar generally maintained that it was a system issue, and that if Demar were given a better system, and better teammates, he would adjust and be a team player; he was simply having too much asked of him.

That point was generally countered with "He won't adjust, he will continue to play Selfish basketball and jack up dumb shots because thats who he is."

I say generally, because there are always exceptions (I won't name names). LOL

I think the bold is a cop-out, though it is why blame has been shared with Casey.

However, even when you're the #1 guy, the alpha dog, the man, the player holding the coach's scorer role card, there's a difference between being the go-to guy and being a selfish ball hog.

There was also an argument that DeRozan could actually be a better scorer by playing less selfishly, as involving his teammates more would help open up better opportunities for him - ie: let shooters spread the floor to open the lane for penetration, less double-teams to face, etc...

[Joey]

You should name names.

Too much passive aggressiveness around here with no accountability.

Pro-Derozan Outliers: Christian and Special1. These guys are hardcore DD fans, and you gotta respect the ardentness of their fandom...

Anti-Derozan Outliers: Snooch and OldSkoolCool. These guys are hardcore Detractors, and you gotta respect the persistense of their feelings toward DD as well. Lol

[Raptorsnz]

You should name names.

Too much passive aggressiveness around here with no accountability.

Better get Casey on the forums to bring a culture change.