Everything Derozan

[JWash]

That seems accurate to me. The other side of the coin is, he's shooting 25.7% on catch and shoot opportunities this year, and 40.3% on pull ups.

He's the type of player who what he's good at, he's very good at. What he's bad at, he's very bad at.

40.3% is a fairly good percentage for pull ups. It's higher than Lowry and also higher than many other top SGs like Butler (35.9%), Harden (33.6%), Beal (40.0%), Wade (35.4%), etc. Lower than Klay who's at a very good 44.3%.

His catch and shoot percentage is garbage because most of those shots are long-twos and threes (almost half of his catch and shoot attempts are 3s) which we already know he isn't good at. I don't really care that he isn't good at those things as long as he avoids them (which is what he's been doing for the most part, hence the spike in efficiency this year).

[JWash]

True if you set the min possessions as 100. But if you do, you screen out a lot of really good players like Durant, Kawhi, Manu, Melo for example.

That's not even true.

DeRozan scores 1.04 PPP as a pick and roll ball handler.

Durant - 0.96
Kawhi - 0.92
Manu - 0.76
Melo - 0.61

[Axel]

That's not even true.

DeRozan scores 1.04 PPP as a pick and roll ball handler.

Durant - 0.96
Kawhi - 0.92
Manu - 0.76
Melo - 0.61

No it's true, you just misunderstand my point.

Demar ranks second if you set the min at 100 possessions, but not sure that 100 possessions is the appropriate level since there are a lot of really good and elite players with less than 100. So if you move the min possession to a lower number then Demar drops in rank. Marcus Thornton leads the league if you set it to 50 for example.

[special1]

No it's true, you just misunderstand my point.

Demar ranks second if you set the min at 100 possessions, but not sure that 100 possessions is the appropriate level since there are a lot of really good and elite players with less than 100. So if you move the min possession to a lower number then Demar drops in rank. Marcus Thornton leads the league if you set it to 50 for example.

Can someone list the elite players with less than 100 possessions?

I dunno.... It just seems that we use stats to discredit Demar A LOT. When the same stats prove that he's actually pretty good, then we change the criteria to show that almost anyone can be elite.

Keep picking those cherries I guess.

I don't need advanced stats to see that Demar is having a great season so far. An all-star season in fact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JWash]

Can someone list the elite players with less than 100 possessions?

I dunno.... It just seems that we use stats to discredit Demar A LOT. When the same stats prove that he's actually pretty good, then we change the criteria to show that almost anyone can be elite.

Keep picking those cherries I guess.

I don't need advanced stats to see that Demar is having a great season so far. An all-star season in fact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup the data says DeMar ranks 2nd in PPP (Curry is 1st) for a particular threshold, so let's lower the threshold so that Marcus Thornton is 1st? How does that make the data make sense?

< 100 P&R possessions at this point is a TINY number. That means you're averaging less than 4 pick and rolls per game.

Also it's not even about "elite players". It doesn't make sense to include players who hardly use pick and rolls in this analysis. At what point is it enough? Is Blake Griffin with his 1.24 PPP on 37 pick & roll possessions as a ball handler the best P&R ball handler in the NBA?

[Axel]

Can someone list the elite players with less than 100 possessions?

I dunno.... It just seems that we use stats to discredit Demar A LOT. When the same stats prove that he's actually pretty good, then we change the criteria to show that almost anyone can be elite.

Keep picking those cherries I guess.

I don't need advanced stats to see that Demar is having a great season so far. An all-star season in fact.

Yup the data says DeMar ranks 2nd in PPP (Curry is 1st) for a particular threshold, so let's lower the threshold so that Marcus Thornton is 1st? How does that make the data make sense?

< 100 P&R possessions at this point is a TINY number. That means you're averaging less than 4 pick and rolls per game.

Also it's not even about "elite players". It doesn't make sense to include players who hardly use pick and rolls in this analysis. At what point is it enough? Is Blake Griffin with his 1.24 PPP on 37 pick & roll possessions as a ball handler the best P&R ball handler in the NBA?

It's not about cherry picking anything. Not a single person here knows the statistical threshold for PnR ball handler. How many possessions should be used when comparing players? We know for minutes, games played, FGA and a host of others, but we don't know for PnR ball handler because the data hasn't been available until recently.

Considering the arbitrary use of 100 possessions eliminates players like Durant, Kawhi, Melo and Manu for example, I question the validity of it.

But if you are determined to make DD 2nd, then 100 works great. Perhaps that is the intent of the RealGM poster who came up with that. Who knows. Another reason not to share posts from other sites without checking the data yourself.

[Snooch]

Haven't you already stated numerous times that it doesn't matter what DD does this season, you'll still view him as a negative for the team and you want him gone ASAP? No disrespect but when's the case… Why even bother weighing in on the topic anymore? It's not like you should be taken seriously once that has happened.

I have never said he was a negative. Ever.

Again that is what has become the stigma associated with me from posters such as christian and jwash

I have always given him his due credit. Just nothing more.

He contributes 20 points per game some assists and some rebounds.

That is cannot be argued.

I always questioned his replaceability. His contract value moving forward. And that if he was moved for other players then the value of those others players added to guys like jv and lowry that we would experience better long term sustainability

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

[Axel]

Give the trolling a rest man the guy is playing excellent basketball this season. And nothing about it appears to be unsustainable.

Why even bother weighing in on the topic anymore? It's not like you should be taken seriously once that has happened.

Seems a good time to remind people that the ignore function exists. If you don't want to see a specific members opinions, then please use it instead of trying to discourage them from posting their views.

[Scraptor]

It's not about cherry picking anything. Not a single person here knows the statistical threshold for PnR ball handler. How many possessions should be used when comparing players? We know for minutes, games played, FGA and a host of others, but we don't know for PnR ball handler because the data hasn't been available until recently.

Considering the arbitrary use of 100 possessions eliminates players like Durant, Kawhi, Melo and Manu for example, I question the validity of it.

But if you are determined to make DD 2nd, then 100 works great. Perhaps that is the intent of the RealGM poster who came up with that. Who knows. Another reason not to share posts from other sites without checking the data yourself.

Seems a little disingenuous to set it to 50, point out that Marcus Thornton is first, and then not mention that Derozan is third, well ahead of all four of the guys you listed who now meet the cutoff criteria.

I ran the same screen and screenshotted it from my phone.




http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...gular%20Season

DeMar is absolutely elite on this list.

KD is at 0.96
Kawhi is 0.92
Manu is 0.76
Melo is 0.66

Skepticism is good. But introducing doubt just to discredit an argument is silly.

[Snooch]

Seems a good time to remind people that the ignore function exists. If you don't want to see a specific members opinions, then please use it instead of trying to discourage them from posting their views.

but the name calling and insulting is cool.

[Axel]

Seems a little disingenuous to set it to 50, point out that Marcus Thornton is first, and then not mention that Derozan is third, well ahead of all four of the guys you listed who now meet the cutoff criteria.

I ran the same screen and screenshotted it from my phone.




http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...gular%20Season

DeMar is absolutely elite on this list.

KD is at 0.96
Kawhi is 0.92
Manu is 0.76
Melo is 0.66

Skepticism is good. But introducing doubt just to discredit an argument is silly.

Not really because my point is more about the stat than Demar.

Setting at 100 seems wrong if it eliminates Durant/etc. So what number of possessions should we set it at? If we lowered it to 50, then Marcus Thornton leads the league. Not exactly reassuring of the quality of the measure. If we split the difference and set it at 75, then Mario Chalmers and Darren Collison are both top 5.

How do you feel about a stat that lists Mario Chalmers as 3rd best in the NBA?

Depending on the number of possessions used, we can see everyone from Mike Miller to Blake Griffin to Gary Neal ahead in rankings.

Then there is the whole other side of the story that the stat ignores - off the pick and roll, sometimes the pass is the right play to make. But by this measure, the player is "punished" for passing instead of shooting. Without seeing the "points generated per play by passing" stat, we are really only getting half the story and one that is very skewed towards "shoot first" mentality (hence Marcus Thornton's rank).

So yes, Demar is elite on this list. But so is Marcus Thornton, Mario Chalmers and Gary Neal; so you'll have to forgive if I doubt the significance of it.

[Axel]

but the name calling and insulting is cool.

Never said that.

[psrs1]

We are talking about NBA negotiations. The Raps/DeRozan negotiation, specifically. But someone has suggested these negotiations will differ significantly from other sorts. Neither they (nor you) have made it clear how, though ... but I have suggested (as a trained negotiator, and drafter of contracts, as it happens) that the principles are the same - to further what I trust is an interesting and useful discussion.

But perhaps I might have analogized to negotiations between Princess Amidala and the Confederacy of Independent Systems - rather than other business or employee/employer negotiations?

More acceptable/fun?

Clearly how negotiations will go with DD, his agent and MU are relevant and interesting...unless MU decides not to negotiate and let DD walk as he did with Lou Williams. Time will tell how this plays out.

[JWash]

Seems a little disingenuous to set it to 50, point out that Marcus Thornton is first, and then not mention that Derozan is third, well ahead of all four of the guys you listed who now meet the cutoff criteria.

I ran the same screen and screenshotted it from my phone.




http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...gular%20Season

DeMar is absolutely elite on this list.

KD is at 0.96
Kawhi is 0.92
Manu is 0.76
Melo is 0.66

Skepticism is good. But introducing doubt just to discredit an argument is silly.

Seriously man.... like it's clearly something the guy has been elite at.

[special1]

Clearly how negotiations will go with DD, his agent and MU are relevant and interesting...unless MU decides not to negotiate and let DD walk as he did with Lou Williams. Time will tell how this plays out.

Can someone actually give an example of a team letting their all-star player walk without even negotiating??

It just seems so unrealistic to me.

It really feels like a Demar hater's fantasy.

Common sense tells me that Masai will do everything in his power to re-sign Demar, even if it means trading him later.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk