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  • Axel wrote: View Post
    James Harden might be the only exception to that history although his is unique in itself, so why is it wrong for one to question whether Norman Powell is being groomed down that path with the sole "evidence" being his role on a D-League team that is missing its starting PG?
    Don't disagree with you, other than the fact that Norm didn't run the point for the 905 because they needed him to, they had actual PG's on the roster, but that it provided a perfect opportunity for him to work on his decision making and especially ball handling skills in game action. Remember how long it took DD to learn how not to dribble the ball off his foot?
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
      Don't disagree with you, other than the fact that Norm didn't run the point for the 905 because they needed him to, they had actual PG's on the roster, but that it provided a perfect opportunity for him to work on his decision making and especially ball handling skills in game action. Remember how long it took DD to learn how not to dribble the ball off his foot?
      Yes I don't disagree with that either, in fact I said as much earlier this thread but grow tired of repeating the same logical explanations so decided to try a different one this time. Either explanation makes more sense than "Powell as a PG" theory that has spun for pages.

      I would say that without Delon, Powell at PG in the D-League can at least make sense since FVV is on much weaker footing on the roster.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • planetmars wrote: View Post
        Masai would not have brought in FVV if Powell could play point. Maybe next year they'll reconsider but it's not going to happen this year.
        Yeah, we already seen this in the Orlando game, as I mentioned earlier. Next yr is not guaranteed. Agreed that the situation is still fluid and not absolute.

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          What aversion to talking about it are you going on about? This conversation has been happening just because someone thinks that you are wrong doesn't mean they have an aversion to talking about it.

          Thinking outside the box is great but you still need to bring better rationale than a few D-League games and your personal preference as the entire argument then dismiss anyone who disagrees as not willing to discuss it.
          Saying "what am I going on about" is exactly the dismissive, close minded attitude that stymies conversation.
          I'm arguing against an absolute position that norm cant be a PG and misnomers like true point. Neither side knows the future and I'd like to hear both sides without ridicule, thx. There are arguments on both sides but neither are absolute, which seems to be your position? That's what I'm arguing against bc it's limited, unknowable and denies a counter position/conversation. There are good arguments against norm as PG but it's not absolute.
          We don't have a lot of evidence or a consistent role on which to judge norm at the NBA level, certainly not enough to make absolute statements about what he may or may not be capable of in his career. Of course, people will look at his earlier play and development in college, 905, LVSL.

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          • lewro wrote: View Post
            Saying "what am I going on about" is exactly the dismissive, close minded attitude that stymies conversation.
            I'm arguing against an absolute position that norm cant be a PG and misnomers like true point. Neither side knows the future and I'd like to hear both sides without ridicule, thx. There are arguments on both sides but neither are absolute, which seems to be your position? That's what I'm arguing against bc it's limited, unknowable and denies a counter position/conversation. There are good arguments against norm as PG but it's not absolute.
            We don't have a lot of evidence or a consistent role on which to judge norm at the NBA level, certainly not enough to make absolute statements about what he may or may not be capable of in his career. Of course, people will look at his earlier play and development in college, 905, LVSL.
            It's not dismissive or close minded - it's calling out your comment that is completely illogical (the conversation has been going on for pages but you're claiming that people aren't willing to even talk about it) as you try and paint your point of view as some open minded wisdom instead of what it really is; an opinion. Your comments calling people close minded for not agreeing with you is significantly more stymying to any conversation that has been happening despite your lack of rationale to support your theory.

            No one is talking in absolutes but if you aren't willing to present an opinion with rationale then you can't really complain about the responses. DD's work ethic and Russell Westbrook's success aren't really convincing arguments.

            Hypotheticals and theories are great to discuss but you need to tie them into solid tangibles.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • Axel wrote: View Post
              It's not dismissive or close minded - it's calling out your comment that is completely illogical (the conversation has been going on for pages but you're claiming that people aren't willing to even talk about it) as you try and paint your point of view as some open minded wisdom instead of what it really is; an opinion. Your comments calling people close minded for not agreeing with you is significantly more stymying to any conversation that has been happening despite your lack of rationale to support your theory.

              No one is talking in absolutes but if you aren't willing to present an opinion with rationale then you can't really complain about the responses. DD's work ethic and Russell Westbrook's success aren't really convincing arguments.

              Hypotheticals and theories are great to discuss but you need to tie them into solid tangibles.
              So are you definitively saying that norm will never play pg?

              What's convincing about your argument? That norm will get trapped in the full court? Has that happened? One of his strengths from college on up is his ability to be strong on the ball across full court in transition. It's not a stretch to imagine a possibility that he could develop his game to bring the ball up the court under pressure. Weak handle? Norm has always been best with the ball in his hands throughout his career. He's developing passing and shooting. He's never gonna grow to be a 6'8 sf. Matchups are limited there.

              Discussions about his defense on melo or kemba happened in the dleague? And it's recognized evidence when Keon talks about the dleague but not when I do? Doesn't even seem like you watched those games? Not that we aren't also seeing significant contributions from other dleague players like bebe or that the 905 wasn't a significant acquisition for the franchise, specifically for development. I don't think Masai or the league are that rigid in position labels to begin with. Dleague isn't meaningless.

              Saying the conversation has been "spun" for pages and you have to re-frame your arguments doesn't sound like your opinion is convincing. Yes, I say opinion bc we really don't have a clear view of norm yet. I don't think your opinion is wrong but you seem convinced that I am absolutely wrong, even though I'm not absolutely taking a position on either side. I'd simply like to hear both arguments, openly, without pre-determination around of an absolute truth. That is narrow. There simply isn't enough evidence on either side. All we know right now for sure is that there is a logjam at multiple positions ahead of norm. How that plays out could likely play a role in determining his future development. It would be a waste to rot him on the bench bc of a label. Matchup, skill set, available pt. See how the roster shapes up and then proceed. Norm lacks some skills and pt at all three positions. There certainly are some matchup problems for him at the 3. He lacks some shooting to be a SG and playmaking to be a PG. He's worked on both. No one knows that future yet. There's room for both sides to discuss and consider.
              I'm not saying shut up your wrong. He may well be a 2/3. I'm saying you might be wrong and he may become a 1/2 or a 2/1. That's rational. Pretending to know the future is not. That's not wisdom, it's open consideration. Certainly not ridicule or dismissive. Both sides are just opinions at this point. You know for a fact that norm cannot and will never play point? Please, tell me the future. That sounds like wisdom. 😉

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              • Everything Norman Powell

                lewro wrote: View Post
                So are you definitively saying that norm will never play pg?
                I'm saying that it's very unlikely and doesn't make much sense to ask him to.

                lewro wrote: View Post
                What's convincing about your argument? That norm will get trapped in the full court? Has that happened? One of his strengths from college on up is his ability to be strong on the ball across full court in transition. It's not a stretch to imagine a possibility that he could develop his game to bring the ball up the court under pressure. Weak handle? Norm has always been best with the ball in his hands throughout his career. He's developing passing and shooting. He's never gonna grow to be a 6'8 sf. Matchups are limited there.
                His height is completely irrelevant. Limited matchups at SF is not justification for playing him at PG. You continue to assume that good handles for a wing is the same as good handles for a point. He doesn't have great handles that are required to play PG in the NBA. His moves and control are limited, therefore defences would have an easier time trapping him or steering him into bad situations.

                lewro wrote: View Post
                Discussions about his defense on melo or kemba happened in the dleague? And it's recognized evidence when Keon talks about the dleague but not when I do? Doesn't even seem like you watched those games? Not that we aren't also seeing significant contributions from other dleague players like bebe or that the 905 wasn't a significant acquisition for the franchise, specifically for development. I don't think Masai or the league are that rigid in position labels to begin with. Dleague isn't meaningless.
                Really have no idea how his defence on Melo or Kemba has any relevance but I will say, you need to stop making comments trying to get people to qualify to have an opinion. I don't have to submit a resume to comment and you aren't special in that you watch D-League games. Keon has nothing to do with this either. This is a pattern with you that needs to stop.

                lewro wrote: View Post
                Saying the conversation has been "spun" for pages and you have to re-frame your arguments doesn't sound like your opinion is convincing. Yes, I say opinion bc we really don't have a clear view of norm yet. I don't think your opinion is wrong but you seem convinced that I am absolutely wrong, even though I'm not absolutely taking a position on either side. I'd simply like to hear both arguments, openly, without pre-determination around of an absolute truth. That is narrow. There simply isn't enough evidence on either side. All we know right now for sure is that there is a logjam at multiple positions ahead of norm. How that plays out could likely play a role in determining his future development. It would be a waste to rot him on the bench bc of a label. Matchup, skill set, available pt. See how the roster shapes up and then proceed. Norm lacks some skills and pt at all three positions. There certainly are some matchup problems for him at the 3. He lacks some shooting to be a SG and playmaking to be a PG. He's worked on both. No one knows that future yet. There's room for both sides to discuss and consider.
                I'm not saying shut up your wrong. He may well be a 2/3. I'm saying you might be wrong and he may become a 1/2 or a 2/1. That's rational. Pretending to know the future is not. That's not wisdom, it's open consideration. Certainly not ridicule or dismissive. Both sides are just opinions at this point. You know for a fact that norm cannot and will never play point? Please, tell me the future. That sounds like wisdom. 😉
                I have made multiple points why I think your theory is wrong. If you didn't read them the first time then I'm not going to bother repeating myself. You haven't really posted anything that dispels those points or really support your opinion other than "why not?"

                Last edited by Axel; Thu Dec 29th, 2016, 08:46 AM.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • So, it's your opinion that he can't play and not a fact. That leaves space for others to consider different opinions. If you feel it is beating a dead horse than don't bother responding. Most of your comment is a personal attack on me and nothing to do with norm or basketball.
                  You didn't watch the dleague? LVSL? Then you've never seen him play point. I figured as much since you assumed delon was hurt. They actually shared the court. Most of the time delon ran point but bc he's 6'6 (of course height matters, duh!) and we run a two guard lineup, they want those guys to practice and develop those skills. Those leagues exist specifically for development (hence the name) and we are asking whether norm can "develop" those skills. Saying resume shit is just evasive nonsense.
                  Positionless basketball is more and more a part of the modern NBA. If you are going to make arguments about a "true point" then you should probably use the term correctly. No, he's not John Stockton but it's also not 1995.
                  Telling me "stop" is just more silencing. I haven't done anything wrong. As I said, there isn't a lot of evidence on either side and I'm not even taking a definitive position but somehow you know your opinion is right. That's all you've demonstrated is an opinion. You haven't even seen him play. Well, fyi he can bring the ball up the court. He needs to work on passing and running an offense. He's not a "true point" but Kyle and Cory aren't Stockton either. The definition doesn't have to be that rigid for conversation in a bball forum and sorry to tell you but you don't set the bar - it's an open forum. I don't think your opinion is wrong but trying to silence and insult people is wrong. No wonder.

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                  • lewro wrote: View Post
                    So, it's your opinion that he can't play and not a fact. That leaves space for others to consider different opinions. If you feel it is beating a dead horse than don't bother responding. Most of your comment is a personal attack on me and nothing to do with norm or basketball.
                    You didn't watch the dleague? LVSL? Then you've never seen him play point. I figured as much since you assumed delon was hurt. They actually shared the court. Most of the time delon ran point but bc he's 6'6 (of course height matters, duh!) and we run a two guard lineup, they want those guys to practice and develop those skills. Those leagues exist specifically for development (hence the name) and we are asking whether norm can "develop" those skills. Saying resume shit is just evasive nonsense.
                    Positionless basketball is more and more a part of the modern NBA. If you are going to make arguments about a "true point" then you should probably use the term correctly. No, he's not John Stockton but it's also not 1995.
                    Telling me "stop" is just more silencing. I haven't done anything wrong. As I said, there isn't a lot of evidence on either side and I'm not even taking a definitive position but somehow you know your opinion is right. That's all you've demonstrated is an opinion. You haven't even seen him play. Well, fyi he can bring the ball up the court. He needs to work on passing and running an offense. He's not a "true point" but Kyle and Cory aren't Stockton either. The definition doesn't have to be that rigid for conversation in a bball forum and sorry to tell you but you don't set the bar - it's an open forum. I don't think your opinion is wrong but trying to silence and insult people is wrong. No wonder.
                    Wow.

                    Please point to where I said I never watched D-League or Summer League?

                    Please point to a personal attack?

                    Please point to how I am trying to silence you?

                    Please find "True Point" in the dictionary then tell me how I am using it wrong.

                    I have repeatedly provided points and you repeatedly haven't responded to any of them yet are trying to claim that I am being evasive? It is an open forum but you've spent half your posts complaining about people and how they choose to respond. If you can't stay on topic, then you need to move on.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                    • We have seen the overachieving good Norman, now we are seeing the 2nd round scrub Norman. I think he falls somewhere in the middle long term.

                      Are people still super high on him?

                      I was never a "he is the future" type of guy, but thought he could carve out a role with a good team. Right now I think he just does not fit our roster that well. He is a 2 guard plain and simple, and DeRozan has that position on lock and Ross is a solid back-up. Ross size allows for better wing match-ups, and while he is not 100% dialed in on defense all the time, he still has good tools.

                      I love the effort Norm lays with, but I think we should sell high.
                      Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

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                      • WJF wrote: View Post
                        We have seen the overachieving good Norman, now we are seeing the 2nd round scrub Norman. I think he falls somewhere in the middle long term.

                        Are people still super high on him?

                        I was never a "he is the future" type of guy, but thought he could carve out a role with a good team. Right now I think he just does not fit our roster that well. He is a 2 guard plain and simple, and DeRozan has that position on lock and Ross is a solid back-up. Ross size allows for better wing match-ups, and while he is not 100% dialed in on defense all the time, he still has good tools.

                        I love the effort Norm lays with, but I think we should sell high.
                        i was never super high on norm. people keep clamoring about how 'good' he was in the playoffs. while there were moments where big slam dunks seemed to swing the momentum in the raptors favour, statistically he was overall pretty bad. i mean the kid is a late 2nd rounder whos still new to the league, playing inconsistent minutes. not much more you can really expect from him right now.

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                        • iblastoff wrote: View Post
                          i was never super high on norm. people keep clamoring about how 'good' he was in the playoffs. while there were moments where big slam dunks seemed to swing the momentum in the raptors favour, statistically he was overall pretty bad. i mean the kid is a late 2nd rounder whos still new to the league, playing inconsistent minutes. not much more you can really expect from him right now.
                          He was terrible in the second round vs. Wade. In the first round, he did very well defending PG and played well in Game 7. Pretty good for a second rounder. Of course there is a chance he doesn't reach his potential, but he has the tools to be a good player.

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                          • Norm is playing like a 20 th pick overall. Just needs to be a little more consistent I hope his confidence and work ethic are not wanting.

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                            • He just needs some more consistent minutes and looks.

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                              • he's playing like a bag of smashed assholes lately for sure and it's been frustrating to watch him play. But it shouldn't be a surprise given the inconsistency in his minutes and he lacks a defined role on the team. With the Carroll injuries last year and Ross's inconsistencies there was an opportunity there for him and he took full advantage. This season that opportunity hasn't presented itself and obviously it's affecting him. Even when he's on the floor he seems unsure what his role is and what he may be expected to do when he gets the ball. I'm still high on him though.

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