How do we fix our defense?

[lewro]

I'm not saying it has anything to do with JV. I'm saying the presumed better ball movement with Nogueira you are seeing with your eye test is not translating to any more assists, so your eye test is probably misleading you when judging the ball movement with lineups featuring each player.

"Heck, the team has a slightly higher AST% with JV on the court than with BeBe on the court."

This sounded like you were comparing jvs passing to bebe. I don't have time to look at stats now on my phone but I feel comfortable to say bebe is a better passer than jv. Not saying bebe is a passing wizard. I'd guess in time that could help with the team offense. If it hasn't translated to this point, I still think it would show some improvement in time with a larger sample. I've seen enough of bebe in sl and dleague hitting cutters of the high post and I've seen our wings and guards cut back door enough to believe this is possible. Jv usually just tries to reset the offense out of the high post. Passing is not his strength

[jimmie]

I'm not saying it has anything to do with JV. I'm saying the presumed better ball movement with Nogueira you are seeing with your eye test is not translating to any more assists, so your eye test is probably misleading you when judging the ball movement with lineups featuring each player.

One nitpick here: Not seeing any more assists on the stat sheet really doesn't tell you that there isn't better ball movement with Bebe over JV. Could have the same number of assists with vastly more ball movement. I don't know which is the case, just pointing that out.

We don't need stats to tell us JV isn't a great passer atm. And I think posing Bebe as the corollary may be the wrong route, if we're talking about preferring a better defender at the 5. I agree that Bebe is unproven in all ways, and while he's absolutely more athletic and fluid than JV, and is longer than hell, and is currently a better passer than JV, I honestly don't see his future development as the answer at the 5 for Toronto. I hope he proves me wrong, but he seems, I don't know, a bit soft/lacking confidence... I think he's just afraid to make a mistake, but until he gets more confident/aggressive, I think he's a backup/matchup guy.

[DanH]

Jeez, guys, I was responding to this.

Bebe is not an offensive centre but hes hitting lobs at a high percentage and he passes well that are assists go up. Not saying bebe is better than jv just arguing style of play and fit. We also seem to get some pts in transition out of defense. Imo that's when the momentum starts to swing and guys are more locked in and motivated, particularly Ross.

That's all. I'm not making a point about anyone's passing. I'm saying that even though BeBe's passing is certainly better than JV's, that statement that our assists go up is simply not true.

[lewro]

Jeez, guys, I was responding to this.



That's all. I'm not making a point about anyone's passing. I'm saying that even though BeBe's passing is certainly better than JV's, that statement that our assists go up is simply not true.

If you look at the 2 games vs OKC and sac that jv missed our assists did go up +2 and +3. The sac game our whole team was crap but they played well vs OKC. Lowry had 13 (season high?) assists, he avg 7.4. bebe was 5/5 all lobs maybe all from Lowry iirc.
Bebe and jv avg around the same assists but /36 bebe is higher. He hasn't been playing with these guys for yrs like jv. I'd expect in time for the ball movement to improve more.

[rocwell]

If you look at the 2 games vs OKC and sac that jv missed our assists did go up +2 and +3. The sac game our whole team was crap but they played well vs OKC. Lowry had 13 (season high?) assists, he avg 7.4. bebe was 5/5 all lobs maybe all from Lowry iirc.

What ya trying to say here? Usually it's easier to get more AST when other team is trying to play at higher pace. Especially when our guys are always try to push the ball.

[Lupe]

I am not one to get obsessed with trends, but it is no coincidence that lately we are seeing many of the strong offensive centers who lack quality in defense being moved to bench scoring roles or not being used at all. Teams are trending in favor of high mobility, athletic centers who can cover the perimeter and pick and roll better, particularly because of the increase in usage of the 3 point shot and pick and roll offense.

We've seen it with Orlando recently moving Vucevic to the bench, Greg Monroe in Milwaukee, Al Jefferson in Indiana, Enes Kanter in Oklahoma City. All centers who can give you significant production on offense but lack the athletic qualities necessary to be strong defenders in the modern NBA at their positions. I'm just concerned this might be the case for Valanciunas as well. It gets particularly exposed when we go up against the Cavs, who unfortunately are the giant roadblock between us and the finals.

[lewro]

What ya trying to say here? Usually it's easier to get more AST when other team is trying to play at higher pace. Especially when our guys are always try to push the ball.

I'm saying that our guards and our system are more apt to throw lobs out of the pnr and we have many good slashing guards that could benefit from a passing big out of the high post (we haven't seen this yet but bebe is capable of it).
Imo were not an inside out team with a low post big as the focus. We could be but we are not atm

[lewro]

I agree with Lupe and I worry that jvs value will drop if this trend continues and we continue to lower his usage.

[KHD]

I'm saying that our guards and our system are more apt to throw lobs out of the pnr and we have many good slashing guards that could benefit from a passing big out of the high post (we haven't seen this yet but bebe is capable of it).
Imo were not an inside out team with a low post big as the focus. We could be but we are not atm

i don't understand your obsession with the idea that our guards are good at throwing lob passes. they aren't.

[special1]

when i pointed this out last year it was dismissed as "defending JV because you're a JV 'stan'", whatever the fuck that is.

A "stan" is term used to describe an obsessed fan. It comes from Eminem's song Stan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_(fan)

[golden]

Jeez, guys, I was responding to this.



That's all. I'm not making a point about anyone's passing. I'm saying that even though BeBe's passing is certainly better than JV's, that statement that our assists go up is simply not true.

However, team ORTG does go up with Bebe, which is the end result. ORTG skyrockets actually, to 128.6.

[DanH]

However, team ORTG does go up with Bebe, which is the end result. ORTG skyrockets actually, to 128.6.

For sure, our bench unit is pretty unstoppable with one of our all-stars going against bench opposition, and with the most impactful frontcourt player on the team coming off the bench.

I would never refute that. But they are playing the same style as the starters do - low assist, guard oriented offence.

[lewro]

i don't understand your obsession with the idea that our guards are good at throwing lob passes. they aren't.

I made a longer response to this and accidentally deleted. Ill just say that imo Kyle is looking to make lobs to bebe whereas jv is routinely looked off in the post and wide open under the net screaming for the ball.
The guards primarily look for kick out to the wing but in terms of bigs involved (other than pat) seems like lobs and put backs to me. What are you seeing? How are bebe and jv being assisted?

[lewro]

For sure, our bench unit is pretty unstoppable with one of our all-stars going against bench opposition, and with the most impactful frontcourt player on the team coming off the bench.

I would never refute that. But they are playing the same style as the starters do - low assist, guard oriented offence.

Seems like bebe is trending more toward closing games with the starters and jv more toward scola starter.
If we are guard oriented than I don't see a lot of touches for a post up big. That's fine in a kanter role but not as a big 3 imo. Seems like that style lends itself more to a big that doesn't need the ball to have impact. Jv does this in rebounds and screen assists but his best asset is his efficiency in low post scoring.

[DanH]

Seems like bebe is trending more toward closing games with the starters and jv more toward scola starter.
If we are guard oriented than I don't see a lot of touches for a post up big. That's fine in a kanter role but not as a big 3 imo. Seems like that style lends itself more to a big that doesn't need the ball to have impact. Jv does this in rebounds and screen assists but his best asset is his efficiency in low post scoring.

BeBe is trending towards closing more games?

On the season JV has played in the clutch in twice as many games (8 games to BeBe's 4). BeBe's 4 includes 1 against SAC where he played 12 clutch seconds (a game JV was hurt for) and the OKC game (the other game JV missed). Over the past 10 games, there have been 5 games with "clutch" time at the end. JV has closed 4 of them, the other closed with neither JV nor BeBe on the floor (against the Cavs). So in the past 10 games, BeBe has received zero minutes in close situations at the end of games.

Seems like he's trending pretty far away from closing games with the starters.