Everything Pascal Siakam

[Primer]

If we want a finished product, we keep Pascal.

Pascal plays the same position as Scottie and can't shoot. We will never be a contender with those two playing together. Gotta fix the roster and that means move Pascal for better fits.

[DanH]

murray also makes something like 20M less than pascal next year and presumably won't command 40M+ on his next contract like pascal will. not having to max pascal out under these new rules is almost as much of a consideration for me in any pascal deal as the impact on our lineup.

i know most think pascal is well worth a max but i'm skeptical until we see how this new CBA affects roster construction, particularly with raises due to scottie and OG, whom i'd like to keep

If he's going to be an all-star guard for us, he's not going to be paid <20M for long. He'll be getting his 30M+ on the market next summer (again, if he's an all-star guard, which I'm not 100% sure he will be), and will be an UFA so just as little guarantee he stays as with Pascal.

I could see the argument for him being a key centrepiece of a Pascal trade if he was locked in cheap long term. He very is not.

And yes, Pascal, the multiple time all-NBA player, is well worth a max.

[DanH]

Pascal plays the same position as Scottie and can't shoot. We will never be a contender with this two playing together. Gotta fix the roster and that means move Pascal for better fits.

OK, so find me a Pascal level player who fits better. Or, if you want to build a trade around a lesser player who fits better, it comes with a pile of draft assets (that Atlanta can't actually even offer, by the way).

[Primer]

OK, so find me a Pascal level player who fits better. Or, if you want to build a trade around a lesser player who fits better, it comes with a pile of draft assets (that Atlanta can't actually even offer, by the way).

Two 1sts and Murray is a good return for Pascal. A younger all star who fits way better with Scottie, and draft picks so we can add more young affordable talent around Scottie. Atlanta can give up their pick this draft and they can get more picks by dealing Collins or Hunter. Not really hard to pull off by the way.

[planetmars]

The interesting thing is that people who hate Fred want Dejounte Murray. They are both super inefficient shooters. At least Fred is a known floor spacer (he had one bad year). Murray is not. He has a career TS% of 52. Fred is at 54.

Usage about the same too.

Grass is always greener as they say...

[BrydenB]

If he's going to be an all-star guard for us, he's not going to be paid <20M for long. He'll be getting his 30M+ on the market next summer (again, if he's an all-star guard, which I'm not 100% sure he will be), and will be an UFA so just as little guarantee he stays as with Pascal.

I could see the argument for him being a key centrepiece of a Pascal trade if he was locked in cheap long term. He very is not.

And yes, Pascal, the multiple time all-NBA player, is well worth a max.

Calling Pascal a "multiple time all-NBA player" is a bit disingenuous. This reads like he is a perennial top 15 player in the NBA, which he absolutely is not. I'd argue he's gotten lucky with other forwards' injuries and positional pigeonholes leading to him even sniffing that title.

[DanH]

Calling Pascal a "multiple time all-NBA player" is a bit disingenuous. This reads like he is a perennial top 15 player in the NBA, which he absolutely is not. I'd argue he's gotten lucky with other forwards' injuries and positional pigeonholes leading to him even sniffing that title.

Is it? Has he made all-NBA once? Or more than once?

Did I say a perennial all-NBA player, or multiple time all-NBA player?

Would you agree that there are more than 15 players in the league worth a max, and as such if a few of them missed out on all-NBA due to position or injury, Pascal would definitely still be worth a max? I would hope so.

[G____Deane]

He's expiring salary filler my friend. Jazz need to send out around $10M to make that trade work.

So think of it as Murray, the 15th pick and a 2025 1st for Pascal.

I don't really want to move Pascal (unless FVV is done in a total re-tool)
If we are, I want a haul of young players and picks. Pascal is not elite but he a B+ player and should have great value.

[Primer]

The interesting thing is that people who hate Fred want Dejounte Murray. They are both super inefficient shooters. At least Fred is a known floor spacer (he had one bad year). Murray is not. He has a career TS% of 52. Fred is at 54.

Usage about the same too.

Grass is always greener as they say...

Let's compare them then, and not use career numbers which is silly at this point, Fred is not career Fred anymore and neither is Murray, let's compare the most recent season, which is clearly the most relevant to their current abilities.

Murray is 3 years younger.
Murray is 3 inches taller.

Murray FG 46.4%
Fred FG 39.3%

Murray 3PT 34.4%
Fred 3PT 34.2%

Murray eFG 51.4%
Fred eFG 48.6%
Major efficiency difference!

Murray REB 5.3
Fred REB 4.1

Murray 6.1 AST
Fred 7.2 AST

Murray 20.5 PTS
Fred 19.3 PTS

Murray TS 54%
Fred TS 54%

Looks to me like Murray is the superior player in every respect.

The assist difference is largely due to playing next to Trae Young who averages 10.2 AST. Murray averaged 9.2 AST the season before, a number Fred has never sniffed in his career.

Murray is also improving every season. Fred is declining.

The grass actually is greener if you look at the grass today, and not photos of the grass over the past 7 years.

[G____Deane]

Let's compare them then, and not use career numbers which is silly at this point, Fred is not career Fred anymore and neither is Murray, let's compare the most recent season, which is clearly the most relevant to their current abilities.

Murray is 3 years younger.
Murray is 3 inches taller.

Murray FG 46.4%
Fred FG 39.3%

Murray 3PT 34.4%
Fred 3PT 34.2%

Murray eFG 51.4%
Fred eFG 48.6%
Major efficiency difference!

Murray REB 5.3
Fred REB 4.1

Murray 6.1 AST
Fred 7.2 AST

Murray 20.5 PTS
Fred 19.3 PTS

Murray TS 54%
Fred TS 54%

Looks to me like Murray is the superior player in every respect.

The assist difference is largely due to playing next to Trae Young who averages 10.2 AST. Murray averaged 9.2 AST the season before, a number Fred has never sniffed in his career.

Murray is also improving every season. Fred is declining.

The grass actually is greener if you look at the grass today, and not photos of the grass over the past 7 years.

Great post.

[Kagemusha]

Let's compare them then, and not use career numbers which is silly at this point, Fred is not career Fred anymore and neither is Murray, let's compare the most recent season, which is clearly the most relevant to their current abilities.

Murray is 3 years younger.
Murray is 3 inches taller.

Murray FG 46.4%
Fred FG 39.3%

Murray 3PT 34.4%
Fred 3PT 34.2%

Murray eFG 51.4%
Fred eFG 48.6%
Major efficiency difference!

Murray REB 5.3
Fred REB 4.1

Murray 6.1 AST
Fred 7.2 AST

Murray 20.5 PTS
Fred 19.3 PTS

Murray TS 54%
Fred TS 54%

Looks to me like Murray is the superior player in every respect.

The assist difference is largely due to playing next to Trae Young who averages 10.2 AST. Murray averaged 9.2 AST the season before, a number Fred has never sniffed in his career.

Murray is also improving every season. Fred is declining.

The grass actually is greener if you look at the grass today, and not photos of the grass over the past 7 years.

Thank you.

also grass is greener in the first day of spring than it is in the first day of fall. Whatever. Lol

[DanH]

Let's compare them then, and not use career numbers which is silly at this point, Fred is not career Fred anymore and neither is Murray, let's compare the most recent season, which is clearly the most relevant to their current abilities.

Murray is 3 years younger.
Murray is 3 inches taller.

Murray FG 46.4%
Fred FG 39.3%

Murray 3PT 34.4%
Fred 3PT 34.2%

Murray eFG 51.4%
Fred eFG 48.6%
Major efficiency difference!

Murray REB 5.3
Fred REB 4.1

Murray 6.1 AST
Fred 7.2 AST

Murray 20.5 PTS
Fred 19.3 PTS

Murray TS 54%
Fred TS 54%

Looks to me like Murray is the superior player in every respect.

The assist difference is largely due to playing next to Trae Young who averages 10.2 AST. Murray averaged 9.2 AST the season before, a number Fred has never sniffed in his career.

Murray is also improving every season. Fred is declining.

The grass actually is greener if you look at the grass today, and not photos of the grass over the past 7 years.

LOL, you highlight eFG% and ignore TS%, which is one step closer to capturing total efficiency? Let's go one step further and grab individual ORTG, 117 for Fred and 112 for Murray.

Fred's got a higher assist rate, scores on a lower usage, and as noted is actually more efficient.

The Murray argument mostly relies on his to-this-date complete outlier all-star season in SA two seasons ago. That's the argument to make, not his most recent season. Of course, that would require you to allow for Fred to be better than his most recent season so I see why that idea never occurred to you.

[planetmars]

Let's compare them then, and not use career numbers which is silly at this point, Fred is not career Fred anymore and neither is Murray, let's compare the most recent season, which is clearly the most relevant to their current abilities.

Murray is 3 years younger.
Murray is 3 inches taller.

Murray FG 46.4%
Fred FG 39.3%

Murray 3PT 34.4%
Fred 3PT 34.2%

Murray eFG 51.4%
Fred eFG 48.6%
Major efficiency difference!

Murray REB 5.3
Fred REB 4.1

Murray 6.1 AST
Fred 7.2 AST

Murray 20.5 PTS
Fred 19.3 PTS

Murray TS 54%
Fred TS 54%

Looks to me like Murray is the superior player in every respect.

The assist difference is largely due to playing next to Trae Young who averages 10.2 AST. Murray averaged 9.2 AST the season before, a number Fred has never sniffed in his career.

Murray is also improving every season. Fred is declining.

The grass actually is greener if you look at the grass today, and not photos of the grass over the past 7 years.

You are trading Pascal for Dejounte, not Fred. You want Fred gone. Like erased. And Fred never got to work with a center until the last 20 games of his season. You know a guy most PG's rack up assists with.

So you are trading our best player for a slightly better version of Fred? And all you are using is counting numbers? What about BPM, WS/48, EPM, etc? What are the impact stats like? Or those don't matter?

Anyway my point is you want Fred erased because he sucks, but are willing to trade for a Fred clone that's younger but going to cost a lot more. It doesn't really make that much sense. And the cherry is you want him for Pascal who's our best player.

And I like Dejounte. But I don't want two Dejounte's on my team. I'd prefer Fred if I had to choose. Fred is at least a threat from outside and so teams have to game plan for that threat. It opens up space for guys like Scottie and Poeltl who can't space the floor.

[chris]

yeah i'm not even advocating for this trade and don't necesarily love the fit of murray either (as i said all season, a fred willing to accept an off-ball and secondary playmaker role is ideal next to scottie), i'm just saying that from an asset management standpoint i prefer to pay a younger, ascending two-way all-star or borderline all star in the neighborhood of 30M than to pay pascal a max, in addition to the benefit of eliminating the duplicity of pascal and scottie and allowing scottie to spread his wings more

[BrydenB]

Is it? Has he made all-NBA once? Or more than once?

Did I say a perennial all-NBA player, or multiple time all-NBA player?

Would you agree that there are more than 15 players in the league worth a max, and as such if a few of them missed out on all-NBA due to position or injury, Pascal would definitely still be worth a max? I would hope so.

No, I actually functionally disagree with paying someone who's ceiling is 25th best player in the league a max contract. Hence, don't pay Pascal the max. Specifically one who plays the exact same position as your best hope to make a leap. This is how you end up as a treadmill team.