Everything Pascal Siakam

[chris]

No, I actually functionally disagree with paying someone who's ceiling is 25th best player in the league a max contract. Hence, don't pay Pascal the max. Specifically one who plays the exact same position as your best hope to make a leap. This is how you end up as a treadmill team.

it's been common practice to hand out max contracts to top 40 or so players in the past, depending on where a team might be at in their trajectory, but i think that could change under the new rules (or at least i think it should) and non-rookie max extensions should be given out by teams more judiciously

[The Claw Reborn]

Let's compare them then, and not use career numbers which is silly at this point, Fred is not career Fred anymore and neither is Murray, let's compare the most recent season, which is clearly the most relevant to their current abilities.

Murray is 3 years younger.
Murray is 3 inches taller.

Murray FG 46.4%
Fred FG 39.3%

Murray 3PT 34.4%
Fred 3PT 34.2%

Murray eFG 51.4%
Fred eFG 48.6%
Major efficiency difference!

Murray REB 5.3
Fred REB 4.1

Murray 6.1 AST
Fred 7.2 AST

Murray 20.5 PTS
Fred 19.3 PTS

Murray TS 54%
Fred TS 54%

Looks to me like Murray is the superior player in every respect.

The assist difference is largely due to playing next to Trae Young who averages 10.2 AST. Murray averaged 9.2 AST the season before, a number Fred has never sniffed in his career.

Murray is also improving every season. Fred is declining.

The grass actually is greener if you look at the grass today, and not photos of the grass over the past 7 years.

Good luck with changing the minds of the VanVleet fans.

[The Claw Reborn]

I think there has to be a 3rd team involved taking on John Collins. Great opportunity for a team with cap space to get Collins on the cheap.

Here's an example trade

Pascal and 28th pick to the Hawks
Murray, Olynyk, 15th pick, and a 2025 1st to the Raptors
Collins to the Jazz

Jonathan Givony is this offseason’s Jake Fischer. Fisher boosted her legitimacy last offseason with some reliable insider’s information.

Givony is getting tv time in ESPN

Woj and Shams sharing the market share with this twitter clicks LOL

[Primer]

LOL, you highlight eFG% and ignore TS%, which is one step closer to capturing total efficiency? Let's go one step further and grab individual ORTG, 117 for Fred and 112 for Murray.

Fred's got a higher assist rate, scores on a lower usage, and as noted is actually more efficient.

The Murray argument mostly relies on his to-this-date complete outlier all-star season in SA two seasons ago. That's the argument to make, not his most recent season. Of course, that would require you to allow for Fred to be better than his most recent season so I see why that idea never occurred to you.

TS% is not as good as eFG for saying how efficient a player is in my opinion.

I don't like players who shoot like absolute shit from the field and TS obscures that by including FTs.

Missed FGs most often lead to turnovers. Relying on guys who are terrible from the field but good FT shooters is a recipe for sucking.

Go check out Denver's roster. Every single player has a good eFG.

No look at Miami, every player except for Oladipo has a much better eFG than Fred.

Now look at Boston, every single player has a much better eFG than Fred.

You seeing the trend here?

You can't be a contender and have your 2nd highest volume shooter having an abysmal eFG.

Murray is by no means perfect but his eFG is trending up, not down, and his 51.4% eFG is better than Fred had his all star season. He'd be a very clear upgrade, and he's actually getting better not worse.

Here's a perfect example of why I don't use ORTG and DRTG for comparison.

Poeltl in SA last season ORTG 119, DRTG 116
Poeltl in TO last season ORTG 132, DRTG 110

Almost like those stats are entirely dependent on your team and not the player.

[planetmars]

Pascal's bringing the hammer down.

[Primer]

Pascal's bringing the hammer down.

This is dumb as shit.

If we're trading you it's because we don't want you. You don't fit with Scottie. Grow up and go play where you're wanted.

[planetmars]

This is dumb as shit.

If we're trading you it's because we don't want you. You don't fit with Scottie. Grow up and go play where you're wanted.

He also loses out on a potential super max if he gets traded.

[Primer]

He also loses out on a potential super max if he gets traded.

We are never giving him the supermax, so he misses out on nothing.

[planetmars]

We are never giving him the supermax, so he misses out on nothing.

If he makes all-nba as a Raptor then he's qualified. If he gets traded before then he's not. I'd be motivated to stay to have a chance at that super max. Even if it doesn't get offered. I've got a year to change your minds.

[slaw]

He also loses out on a potential super max if he gets traded.

Ah, did not know that. Definitely makes trading him harder than I would have otherwise thought.

Yeah, if I'm him, I'm telling every team that I'm not signing an extension. He owes Toronto nothing here, especially if they are looking at trading him. He's probably pissed at that, too.

[Kagemusha]

If he makes all-nba as a Raptor then he's qualified. If he gets traded before then he's not. I'd be motivated to stay to have a chance at that super max. Even if it doesn't get offered. I've got a year to change your minds.

Isn't he on a supermax contract already?

[planetmars]

Ah, did not know that. Definitely makes trading him harder than I would have otherwise thought.

Yeah, if I'm him, I'm telling every team that I'm not signing an extension. He owes Toronto nothing here, especially if they are looking at trading him. He's probably pissed at that, too.

Yeah, the early super max is only offered to players that stayed on the team that drafted them. Once you hit free agency and leave, or get traded you lose that right. Guys like Tatum, Brown, Young, Booker, Murray, Towns and Bam still all have that right. Guys like Ingram, Simmons (lol) and Mitchell do not. As they were all traded.

Of course once you hit the 10 year mark you are entitled anyway no matter if you got traded or not.

[planetmars]

Isn't he on a supermax contract already?

There are two levels. He got a super max rookie extension. You can get to 30% of the cap early, instead of 25%. Pascal made 28% since he only made 2nd team All-NBA.

Then there is the veteran super max extension. This is where you can get to 35% of the cap. And that's the highest percentage the NBA gives you. That's for players that have not hit 10 years, but have hit 7 or more years. This is what Pascal will be aiming for if he makes another all-nba. Even if he just gets the 3rd team.

[JawsGT]

I don't want Murray on the team unless Fred is gone. I don't like the trade much anyway, I think Pascal is worth more than the rumoured offer, but I'm mostly concerned with Scottie's development at this point. If Scottie is sharing the floor with both Fred and Murray, I'm not sure he'll get the opportunity I want him to. He needs to be a focal point. It won't be much different than last season really, if pascal is swapped for Murray. Running PnR with Fred and Murray all game might get Poeltl more shots than Scottie. I don't know, I'm hesitant for that reason tbh. Now if we are moving on from Fred (and I just don't see him playing off ball, cause if he did it would be fine), than it makes more sense but I still think we should get more value in a Pascal trade. Murray would be great I think, sharing playmaking and shot creation duties with Scottie, but he's just not enough for Pascal, and the draft capital isnt enticing enough to pull the trigger.

[MixxAOR]