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  • golden wrote: View Post

    You're suggesting that there should be some type of premium because Pascal is the "2nd best player on a championship team"?

    1) There is a huge drop-off between Kawhi and Pascal. This needs no explanation.
    2) It is not a given that you pay a premium to a guy who helped you win a championship. Draymond is a bonafide DPOY, multi-time all-star on 3 championship teams, and he's never been a max player.

    The team had all the leverage.... except for one thing. Pure speculation, but one scenario could be that Pascal's agent threatened to take the Qualifying Offer and become unrestricted if he didn't get the max. Porzingis apparently talked about doing that before he got traded.
    The Raps have no leverage. Have you been following the NBA? If they don’t sign him he’s either demanding a trade or leaving ASAP when he can.

    You are continuing to make irrelevant comparisons to other players. What does it matter that Kawhi is better than Pascal? That has no bearing whatsoever on Siakams contract. That’s not how the league works. He isn’t getting any premium. He’s getting exactly what he is worth.

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    • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
      In the end Raptors are not signing big time free agents. So keeping our internal guys is a must. Raptors are absolutely not getting anybody better, so we have to overpay.
      They didn’t overpay him. He was getting the max from someone if not Toronto. It is delusional to think his market value is less than this deal.

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      • slaw wrote: View Post

        The Raps have no leverage. Have you been following the NBA? If they don’t sign him he’s either demanding a trade or leaving ASAP when he can.

        You are continuing to make irrelevant comparisons to other players. What does it matter that Kawhi is better than Pascal? That has no bearing whatsoever on Siakams contract. That’s not how the league works. He isn’t getting any premium. He’s getting exactly what he is worth.
        If Pascal falls on his face as a first option this year... then he's not getting the max. Masai could have waited and matched the market offers next year. That's the leverage they had and what a lot of people thought was the cap smart thing to do, especially if the salary cap ends up going down because of China. Pascal's only leverage was threatening to take the QO and becoming un-restricted. That's probably what happened. There is no market at the moment - Raptors are purely bidding against themselves.

        You're the one who brought up "2nd best player on a championship team" as some type of justification for the max. Don't blame me for shooting down that silly strawman.
        Last edited by golden; Sat Oct 19th, 2019, 08:25 PM.

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        • golden wrote: View Post

          If Pascal falls on his face as a first option this year... then he's not getting the max. Masai could have waited and matched the market offers next year. That's the leverage they had and what a lot of people thought was the cap smart thing to do, especially if the salary cap ends up going down because of China. Pascal's only leverage was threatening to take the QO and becoming un-restricted. That's probably what happened. There is no market at the moment - Raptors are purely bidding against themselves.

          You're the one who brought up "2nd best player on a championship team" as some type of justification for the max. Don't blame me for shooting that silly strawman.
          He was the second best player on the best team. Top 15 win shares. He’s a top 10 forward in the league. It’s not a straw man to point out he’s really good. You twisting the argument doesn’t make him a bad player.

          Even if he dies exactly what he did last year he’s getting a max offer. Look at the 2020 class. Lots of guys are getting max salaries, not just #1 options.

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          • slaw wrote: View Post

            He was the second best player on the best team. Top 15 win shares. He’s a top 10 forward in the league. It’s not a straw man to point out he’s really good. You twisting the argument doesn’t make him a bad player.

            Even if he dies exactly what he did last year he’s getting a max offer. Look at the 2020 class. Lots of guys are getting max salaries, not just #1 options.
            Nobody said Pascal is a bad player.... no twisting there, eh? The question is if he's going to justify being a max player and the implications to roster construction, if he doesn't pan out as a max player. All of your arguments... championship... win shares.... are all heavily interwined with team success. I mean, Lowry, Kawhi, Green and Gasol were also big win shares drivers. If you start handing out salaries based on win shares and championships, then your whole starting 5 are going to be max or near max.

            But again, all of these discussions are sidebars, because there was no good reason for the team to max him now.... unless Pascal was threatening to take the QO. That's the real story here. Why now?

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            • golden wrote: View Post

              Masai could have waited and matched the market offers next year. That's the leverage they had and what a lot of people thought was the cap smart thing to do, especially if the salary cap ends up going down because of China. Pascal's only leverage was threatening to take the QO and becoming un-restricted.

              .
              Disagree. Pascal had more leverage and could sign a 2 year max with a player option next summer that we would end up matching. This gives the Raps Pascal’s rights for another 4 years and not rolling the dice on him being unrestricted in 2 years instead of 4.

              We control term this way.
              Last edited by Rudy Bargnani; Sat Oct 19th, 2019, 09:04 PM.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                Nobody said Pascal is a bad player.... no twisting there, eh? The question is if he's going to justify being a max player and the implications to roster construction, if he doesn't pan out as a max player. All of your arguments... championship... win shares.... are all heavily interwined with team success. I mean, Lowry, Kawhi, Green and Gasol were also big win shares drivers. If you start handing out salaries based on win shares and championships, then your whole starting 5 are going to be max or near max.

                But again, all of these discussions are sidebars, because there was no good reason for the team to max him now.... unless Pascal was threatening to take the QO. That's the real story here. Why now?
                Maybe they really like him, really want to keep him, and wanted to send him a message. Players do seem to appreciate when teams step right up to the plate like this rather than waiting it out. They often make positive comments about "feeling wanted."

                There is an element of risk, there always is. We don't know if Lowry will hold up to the end of his deal. We don't know if the new deals are going to squeeze out Fred. We don't know if Pascal will continue to perform.

                It's a nice security blanket when your prospects are on cheap rookie deals. But if they improve you have to pay up, trade, or let them walk. Raps have decided to pay Pascal. It is what it is.

                Also, what DeMar did for the Raps and discounts other players have taken are the exception, not the norm. I don't expect it from anybody. Especially Siakam who started with a relatively small rookie deal as a 27th pick. This is his first payday. Guys virtually never leave money on the table with their first payday.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                • Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post

                  Disagree. Pascal had more leverage and could sign a 2 year max with a player option next summer that we would end up matching. This gives the Raps Pascal’s rights for another 4 years and not rolling the dice on him being unrestricted in 2 years instead of 4.
                  That doesn't make any sense. If he's willing to take a 2-year max from another team, and the Raps are still willing to offer him a 4-year max at higher raises than other teams, why would he take less money and less years?

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                  • I have no worries with Pascal performing to the level of this contract. If he’s not in the all star game this year it will be a snub. And cap space is...overrated.

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                    • golden wrote: View Post

                      That doesn't make any sense. If he's willing to take a 2-year max from another team, and the Raps are still willing to offer him a 4-year max at higher raises than other teams, why would he take less money and less years?
                      The offer sheet we'd have to worry about is a 3 year contract, with the 3rd year being a player option. Max money, player retains flexibility and control and hits free agency earlier at age 29 if he feels the franchise doesn't value him. From what we've read would you put it past Buddy Hield to sign an offer sheet like that? Ok Sacremento...you may control me but I'm going to make myself unrestricted 2 years sooner if you get cute.

                      Kawhi Leonard's friction with the Spurs started with this exact same contract situation. He wanted the max, they made him wait until the following summer. He got his money from them eventually but started to doubt the franchise. Porzingis wanted the Knicks to max him and they made him wait too. That also didn't work out. I understand the advantages to waiting to next summer. I think those advantages are clear. But making him wait isn't without risks.

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                      • I think anyone who believes Pascal won't work himself into this contract being an underpay in three years hasn't been following his career.

                        By midseason, there will be no argument that he isn't a max player.

                        IMHO

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                        • Golden it feels like you've been backed into a corner and you're making an argument for a position you don't even support.

                          At the end of the day, a two-way 3/4/5 with first option "potential" and an all-defence floor is always going to get the max, whether it's from us or not. Might as well foster a strong relationship and get the contract out of the way instead of having it hover over everyone's head the whole season.

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                          • Maury wrote: View Post
                            Golden it feels like you've been backed into a corner and you're making an argument for a position you don't even support.

                            At the end of the day, a two-way 3/4/5 with first option "potential" and an all-defence floor is always going to get the max, whether it's from us or not. Might as well foster a strong relationship and get the contract out of the way instead of having it hover over everyone's head the whole season.
                            Not sure what you mean there, Maury.

                            My position is clear: I would have preferred that we waited and matched true market and by then Pascal would have removed any doubt that he's a legit max player. I'm also disappointed that Pascal isn't giving some thought towards what it means for constructing another championship roster, if he's taking up a big chunk of the salary cap. I hope winning is more important than just getting every penny he could possibly get for himself, because the franchise is in a vulnerable position, perception-wise, in terms of retaining top talent.

                            But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.

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                            • Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                              • golden wrote: View Post


                                But it's done, and there's no changing that now. You can't win or lose any of the 'what if' scenario debates now. What gives me comfort, as always, is that Masai is the guy making these moves. I believe in Masai..... and if Masai thinks Pascal is going to prove himself to be a max player, then I'm on board.
                                he's already proved himself to be a max player is the main thing i don't get about your position

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