Everything Pascal Siakam

[DanH]

Scottie isn't Kawhi, he's nothing like Kawhi. Kawhi and Pascal fit great together.

Right, but not because Kawhi was sitting off ball spotting up for threes while Pascal was creating inside. Because Pascal off ball is a good threat when the primary is operating in the midrange as an attacker, which is exactly what you'd hope Barnes projects as - a high post initiator who can attack or playmake from there.

[Primer]

Scottie is a mini Jokic.
What we need is a Murray type player to complement him.
Between him and Pascal , you take Scottie. Young and a playmaking big.

Hate selfish players, and if the rumours are true that Pascal is being selfish that's a shame.
These guys are already millionaires, what more do they want.

Scottie is not a mini Jokic. That's a ridiculous and silly comp.

[Primer]

Right, but not because Kawhi was sitting off ball spotting up for threes while Pascal was creating inside. Because Pascal off ball is a good threat when the primary is operating in the midrange as an attacker, which is exactly what you'd hope Barnes projects as - a high post initiator who can attack or playmake from there.

Kawhi is an amazing 3pt shooter, always has been, that's why he fits so well with Pascal who can use that spacing to score inside.

Scottie is not Kawhi and hoping he becomes a 39% 3PT shooter is really freaking bad bet.

No one is gonna give Scottie the space they have to give to Kawhi. Just totally different players.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Pascal is not clutch at all. That kind of dough you have to have some clutch

[Yuri Gagarin]

Rather bouch take a buzzer beating 3 than pascal

[DanH]

Kawhi is an amazing 3pt shooter, always has been, that's why he fits so well with Pascal who can use that spacing to score inside.

Scottie is not Kawhi and hoping he becomes a 39% 3PT shooter is really freaking bad bet.

No one is gonna give Scottie the space they have to give to Kawhi. Just totally different players.

Feels like you kind of ignored the entire point of my post, where I recognized that Kawhi can shoot but pointed out that they were hardly having Kawhi spot up, Pascal was working off of Kawhi primarily while Kawhi was operating in the midrange.

[Primer]

Feels like you kind of ignored the entire point of my post, where I recognized that Kawhi can shoot but pointed out that they were hardly having Kawhi spot up, Pascal was working off of Kawhi primarily while Kawhi was operating in the midrange.

So you think defenses play Kawhi in the midrange the same way they play Scottie?

If you wanna say Scottie can fill the Kawhi role next to Pascal you need to be more detailed. Their games are not similar.

[DanH]

So you think defenses play Kawhi in the midrange the same way they play Scottie?

If you wanna say Scottie can fill the Kawhi role next to Pascal you need to be more detailed. Their games are not similar.

They don't right now. Hopefully he'll eventually force them to.

Pascal can play off of Scottie as a primary working in the midrange and high post in the same way he played off of Kawhi operating in the midrange. Pascal didn't get his looks because of Kawhi sitting out at the three point line.

[Limited Upside]

They don't right now. Hopefully he'll eventually force them to.

Pascal can play off of Scottie as a primary working in the midrange and high post in the same way he played off of Kawhi operating in the midrange. Pascal didn't get his looks because of Kawhi sitting out at the three point line.

And if Scottie can't develop at least somewhat Kawhi-level skills, then how are you thinking that Toronto should be building around him - and making all kinds of crazy roster moves to do so?? Come on, Primer, that's crazy talk. Either Scottie is "the future" for Toronto - meaning he becomes a legit star and a #1 guy within a year or two - or he's not. He'd still be a valuable asset and very good player if he doesn't reach those heights, but he's definitely not a guy you "build around" if that's the case.

My thoughts at this point are he is most likely not going to be the superstar that we all agree every team needs to win a championship. But he could be a very good #2. Right now, with no #1 or likely #1 on the roster (Gradey ain't it, either), why should they trade the guy who is closest to it (Pascal)? Even using the "they play the same position" argument, what you are proposing would be like Portland trading Dame to make way for Sharpe to take over the team, or the Kings moving Sabonis so Keegan Murray can take a leap. It doesn't make sense.

[The Claw Reborn]

More crazy to already establish in absolute terms the ceiling of Scottie Barnes who just finished his sophomore season

He has not even sniffed an official basketball game under a new coach..

Stop that insanity.

[Kagemusha]

Scottie is not a mini Jokic. That's a ridiculous and silly comp.

Scottie is a facilitate-first big.

I stopped comparing Scottie with Giannis and Kawhi.
Both are uber aggressive alpha type bucket getters, something Scottie is not.

[planetmars]

If we extend him now we can trade him in 6 months. If he forces us to wait until next offseason we wouldn't be able to deal him until 2 more seasons from now.

Scottie will forever have stunted development while Pascal goes YOLO trying to get a supermax. Worst case scenario. If Pascal only wants a supermax I deal him now no matter what.

Is he loyal to the Raptors or just greedy for a supermax? If he's loyal he will take a max deal now.

I've been on the Pascal and Scottie don't mix train for quite some time. And I haven't wavered. But I also believe that Pascal has to net the perfect return for the Raptors before you consider trading him.

The timing is imperfect right now. He kiboshed that by saying he wouldn't resign with someone if traded. And I don't think even a Pascal 2 years from now at 35% of the cap will be untradeable. And I don't think 2 years is too long a time to help get Scottie more comfortable in a lead role. He wasn't good last year. He had potential in his first year. With Darko around, maybe he will trust Scottie to be more of a lead man. Or at least see what he's like anchoring a bench. But we have to see more of it before we give him the keys. He may not be worth it.. and in that case it might make more sense to trade Barnes than Pascal in 2 years.

Kyle was super awesome leading a bench. It wasn't his raw numbers. It was his ability to elevate the guys around him. We need Scottie to become Kyle 2.0. Not Kawhi 2.0. It's about production with him and not raw stats. Scottie will have plenty of time to lead a team with Pascal sitting/resting. And then learn from Pascal when he's on the court with him. Pascal has the ability to give up the ball. He won a championship as a secondary player.

Now when I say the right trade.. I mean getting someone that can immediately work around Scottie so that we can put together an optimal lineup. Dejounte Murray is not that guy. Anfernee Simons in my opinion is not that guy either.

What we should be aiming for is a LaMelo Ball type of return for Pascal. Or maybe a Jalen Green if he develops the way he was supposed to. Maybe Detroit gets desperate from all that losing and considers trading Pascal for a guy like Cade Cunningham. OKC might want to give up Jalen Williams so they can compete sooner around Shai before he decides to leave.

Pascal needs to be our asset that gets us a Haliburton. Not some future picks that may never pan out.. or some role players that just are role players. Otherwise we're going to get stuck in the middle again even if Scottie turns into a perennial all-star/all-nba type. We should be trying to get a guy that has the potential to be a top 25 player. That's the winning trade for Pascal.

Beal's market was so bad because he only named 2 teams. And even then he had a priority on what team he preferred. Pascal, bless his heart, is never getting an NTC from the Raptors. We're not that dumb. And unlike a super duper star like KD, you can probably trade him to any team. Like with how the Pacers just moved Sabonis to the Kings without his say. And once Pascal is locked up long term.. you don't have to worry about him kiboshing anything.

[slaw]

And if Scottie can't develop at least somewhat Kawhi-level skills, then how are you thinking that Toronto should be building around him - and making all kinds of crazy roster moves to do so?? Come on, Primer, that's crazy talk. Either Scottie is "the future" for Toronto - meaning he becomes a legit star and a #1 guy within a year or two - or he's not. He'd still be a valuable asset and very good player if he doesn't reach those heights, but he's definitely not a guy you "build around" if that's the case.

My thoughts at this point are he is most likely not going to be the superstar that we all agree every team needs to win a championship. But he could be a very good #2. Right now, with no #1 or likely #1 on the roster (Gradey ain't it, either), why should they trade the guy who is closest to it (Pascal)? Even using the "they play the same position" argument, what you are proposing would be like Portland trading Dame to make way for Sharpe to take over the team, or the Kings moving Sabonis so Keegan Murray can take a leap. It doesn't make sense.

I would only note that a player doesn't just become something unless he is given the opportunity to do so. Being the third or fourth option is not going to put Barnes in a position to maximize his potential. This is true in the NBA and every other job/industry. Barnes' max under the current player is mix is what he did the first two seasons. It won't change much cause they've got too many 'stars' to keep happy and Pascal and Fred are never going to take a back seat to Barnes. Why would they? It's their team.

Not advocating one way or another but the context is important here - it's not just about past on-court performance.

[DanH]

I would only note that a player doesn't just become something unless he is given the opportunity to do so. Being the third or fourth option is not going to put Barnes in a position to maximize his potential. This is true in the NBA and every other job/industry. Barnes' max under the current player is mix is what he did the first two seasons. It won't change much cause they've got too many 'stars' to keep happy and Pascal and Fred are never going to take a back seat to Barnes. Why would they? It's their team.

Not advocating one way or another but the context is important here - it's not just about past on-court performance.

The Raptors desperately needed someone to step up and create when Fred and Pascal sat last season, and threw as many of those opportunities as they could at Scottie praying he would step up in those minutes and help create offence for the bench. He just... didn't. Way too passive.

When Scottie shows he can at least step up in those situations, then there will be a reason to question how much he can grow in the starting group. As it is, seems like we are stuck waiting for Scottie to figure out how good he is and start using that when given the chance.

[Limited Upside]

I would only note that a player doesn't just become something unless he is given the opportunity to do so. Being the third or fourth option is not going to put Barnes in a position to maximize his potential. This is true in the NBA and every other job/industry. Barnes' max under the current player is mix is what he did the first two seasons. It won't change much cause they've got too many 'stars' to keep happy and Pascal and Fred are never going to take a back seat to Barnes. Why would they? It's their team.

Not advocating one way or another but the context is important here - it's not just about past on-court performance.

Of course opportunity plays a role. But talent will win out, pretty much every time. If Scottie is that much better than Pascal and Fred, it'll show and the "build around Scottie" argument will be moot. He got tons of opportunity already in comparison to those two as a 2nd year player; he just didn't progress much from year 1. Primary reason for that, IMO, is likely coach/scheme. If Darko implements something different, which we all expect, we'll have a lot better idea of where Scottie stands in the hierarchy.

They also need to decide what "opportunity" he should get. There are a lot of differing opinions on that - is he a PG? a PF? The only thing people seem to agree on is that he has great court vision for his age. But he can hardly score to save his life right now, certainly not as an iso guy... So what opportunity should they give him to see if he has the goods to be elite at his position? And do you need to move the guys ahead of him at that position to give him the opportunity? Or can you figure it out while Pascal (if PF) or Fred (if PG) are still here, so that the team doesn't also completely suck while Scottie is handed the reins?