Everything Pascal Siakam

[chris]

And if Scottie can't develop at least somewhat Kawhi-level skills, then how are you thinking that Toronto should be building around him - and making all kinds of crazy roster moves to do so?? Come on, Primer, that's crazy talk. Either Scottie is "the future" for Toronto - meaning he becomes a legit star and a #1 guy within a year or two - or he's not. He'd still be a valuable asset and very good player if he doesn't reach those heights, but he's definitely not a guy you "build around" if that's the case.

My thoughts at this point are he is most likely not going to be the superstar that we all agree every team needs to win a championship. But he could be a very good #2. Right now, with no #1 or likely #1 on the roster (Gradey ain't it, either), why should they trade the guy who is closest to it (Pascal)? Even using the "they play the same position" argument, what you are proposing would be like Portland trading Dame to make way for Sharpe to take over the team, or the Kings moving Sabonis so Keegan Murray can take a leap. It doesn't make sense.

it's plainly obvious to everyone but portland that they absolutely should do this though, and actually should have years ago as soon as he signed that supermax extension. when it's clear that your ceiling as a franchise is limited due to your franchise player not being capable of being that superstar you're talking about, it's best to move on from that player once he gets up in that 50-60 million dollar range to try to find a player that can be that guy (whether you might have one on your roster already or not).

we don't know whether scottie can be that type of player or not, but what primer is saying and what i said all of last year is that he'll never have a chance of becoming that type of player unless we invest in him. that means putting the ball in his hands more, and running an offensive system and surrounding him with the types of players conducive to his success.

for the record i don't think he'll ever be a kawhi type or whatever, but i do think he has the talent to be the best player on a contender. it will just be more in an all-around type of way rather than a number 1 option guy

edit - i took too long and had a phone call while writing this post and slaw beat me to it, but stated it more concisely

[Limited Upside]

it's plainly obvious to everyone but portland that they absolutely should do this though, and actually should have years ago as soon as he signed that supermax extension. when it's clear that your ceiling as a franchise is limited due to your franchise player not being capable of being that superstar you're talking about, it's best to move on from that player once he gets up in that 50-60 million dollar range to try to find a player that can be that guy (whether you might have one on your roster already or not).

we don't know whether scottie can be that type of player or not, but what primer is saying and what i said all of last year is that he'll never have a chance of becoming that type of player unless we invest in him. that means putting the ball in his hands more, and running an offensive system and surrounding him with the types of players conducive to his success.

for the record i don't think he'll ever be a kawhi type or whatever, but i do think he has the talent to be the best player on a contender. it will just be more in an all-around type of way rather than a number 1 option guy

edit - i took too long and had a phone call while writing this post and slaw beat me to it, but stated it more concisely

Again, though - he got lots of opportunity with the ball in his hands this year, often with Fred and Pascal on the bench so there were no barriers to him being the man. Did he show anything suggestive of him becoming a "franchise player" of the type you would build around (ie. tailor your roster so he gets more usage)?

I just doubt that, based on what we've seen so far, he has the talent to be the "best player on a contender" - those guys need to be able to score at a high level and do it in isolation when necessary. I agree that he can be a really, really good player, though - a great 2nd option. If he shows he can score in isolation, hit a long jumper with consistency, and continue facilitating they way he has, he's got a shot at being a #1 - but I don't know how you could predict that based on what we've seen so far. The scoring is the key to his future, same as it was when he was drafted and shooting was supposed to be his weak point.

And I think they can figure this stuff out without trading Pascal (and Fred, if he returns). Darko just has to implement a system that lets creative, sharing offense flourish, and then Scottie can really show his stuff, one way or the other.

[Kagemusha]

The Raptors desperately needed someone to step up and create when Fred and Pascal sat last season, and threw as many of those opportunities as they could at Scottie praying he would step up in those minutes and help create offence for the bench. He just... didn't. Way too passive.

When Scottie shows he can at least step up in those situations, then there will be a reason to question how much he can grow in the starting group. As it is, seems like we are stuck waiting for Scottie to figure out how good he is and start using that when given the chance.

Scottie was passive coz he is inherently not a bucket getter in the mold of Kawhi and Giannis.
This is why I say Scottie is more Jokic than those two, a facilitating big.

[MixxAOR]

Jokic is effective because he can punish defense if they defend him 1 on 1. Scottie still needs to be scoring threat otherwise opposing teams will guard him like Bam.

[Kagemusha]

Jokic is effective because he can punish defense if they defend him 1 on 1. Scottie still needs to be scoring threat otherwise opposing teams will guard him like Bam.

Year 2 stats

Jokic - 16ppg, 4.9 apg, 9.8 rpg
Scottie - 15ppg, 4.8 apg, 6.6 rpg

Bam is bum in play making.

[Primer]

And if Scottie can't develop at least somewhat Kawhi-level skills, then how are you thinking that Toronto should be building around him - and making all kinds of crazy roster moves to do so?? Come on, Primer, that's crazy talk. Either Scottie is "the future" for Toronto - meaning he becomes a legit star and a #1 guy within a year or two - or he's not. He'd still be a valuable asset and very good player if he doesn't reach those heights, but he's definitely not a guy you "build around" if that's the case.

My thoughts at this point are he is most likely not going to be the superstar that we all agree every team needs to win a championship. But he could be a very good #2. Right now, with no #1 or likely #1 on the roster (Gradey ain't it, either), why should they trade the guy who is closest to it (Pascal)? Even using the "they play the same position" argument, what you are proposing would be like Portland trading Dame to make way for Sharpe to take over the team, or the Kings moving Sabonis so Keegan Murray can take a leap. It doesn't make sense.

Scottie is nothing like Kawhi and the comparison makes no sense. He's a SF who came into the league shooting nearly 38% from 3pt. Scottie is a playmaking PF who is a poor shooter.

My hope is Scottie develops into Pascal with more playmaking. That's a very good player you can build around. You just can't build around him with Pascal because they're playing the same position and both can't shoot.

[Primer]

I've been on the Pascal and Scottie don't mix train for quite some time. And I haven't wavered. But I also believe that Pascal has to net the perfect return for the Raptors before you consider trading him.

The timing is imperfect right now. He kiboshed that by saying he wouldn't resign with someone if traded. And I don't think even a Pascal 2 years from now at 35% of the cap will be untradeable. And I don't think 2 years is too long a time to help get Scottie more comfortable in a lead role. He wasn't good last year. He had potential in his first year. With Darko around, maybe he will trust Scottie to be more of a lead man. Or at least see what he's like anchoring a bench. But we have to see more of it before we give him the keys. He may not be worth it.. and in that case it might make more sense to trade Barnes than Pascal in 2 years.

Kyle was super awesome leading a bench. It wasn't his raw numbers. It was his ability to elevate the guys around him. We need Scottie to become Kyle 2.0. Not Kawhi 2.0. It's about production with him and not raw stats. Scottie will have plenty of time to lead a team with Pascal sitting/resting. And then learn from Pascal when he's on the court with him. Pascal has the ability to give up the ball. He won a championship as a secondary player.

Now when I say the right trade.. I mean getting someone that can immediately work around Scottie so that we can put together an optimal lineup. Dejounte Murray is not that guy. Anfernee Simons in my opinion is not that guy either.

What we should be aiming for is a LaMelo Ball type of return for Pascal. Or maybe a Jalen Green if he develops the way he was supposed to. Maybe Detroit gets desperate from all that losing and considers trading Pascal for a guy like Cade Cunningham. OKC might want to give up Jalen Williams so they can compete sooner around Shai before he decides to leave.

Pascal needs to be our asset that gets us a Haliburton. Not some future picks that may never pan out.. or some role players that just are role players. Otherwise we're going to get stuck in the middle again even if Scottie turns into a perennial all-star/all-nba type. We should be trying to get a guy that has the potential to be a top 25 player. That's the winning trade for Pascal.

Beal's market was so bad because he only named 2 teams. And even then he had a priority on what team he preferred. Pascal, bless his heart, is never getting an NTC from the Raptors. We're not that dumb. And unlike a super duper star like KD, you can probably trade him to any team. Like with how the Pacers just moved Sabonis to the Kings without his say. And once Pascal is locked up long term.. you don't have to worry about him kiboshing anything.

At least you admit Scottie and Pascal don't fit together and Scottie needs shooters around him.

I'm not a fan of punting Scottie's development for 2 years while we're locked into Pascal. Scottie won't be able to develop unless we give him Pascal's role.

The issue with trading Pascal I've laid out several times. Even though he won't have a no trade clause you can't trade a player you extend for another 6 months. If he won't extend this offseason then extends next offseason he effectively has a no trade clause for 2 seaons.

I think it's a horrible idea to punt on Scottie's development for that long.

Pascal has us in a rough spot. By saying he won't resign with anyone else he's effectively implemented a no trade clause. We won't be able to get value.

Some loyalty.

[Primer]

Jokic is effective because he can punish defense if they defend him 1 on 1. Scottie still needs to be scoring threat otherwise opposing teams will guard him like Bam.

Jokic is also a good 3pt shooter. You can't leave him alone on the perimeter.

I wish Scottie was a mini Jokic but he's just not.

[Primer]

it's plainly obvious to everyone but portland that they absolutely should do this though, and actually should have years ago as soon as he signed that supermax extension. when it's clear that your ceiling as a franchise is limited due to your franchise player not being capable of being that superstar you're talking about, it's best to move on from that player once he gets up in that 50-60 million dollar range to try to find a player that can be that guy (whether you might have one on your roster already or not).

we don't know whether scottie can be that type of player or not, but what primer is saying and what i said all of last year is that he'll never have a chance of becoming that type of player unless we invest in him. that means putting the ball in his hands more, and running an offensive system and surrounding him with the types of players conducive to his success.

for the record i don't think he'll ever be a kawhi type or whatever, but i do think he has the talent to be the best player on a contender. it will just be more in an all-around type of way rather than a number 1 option guy

edit - i took too long and had a phone call while writing this post and slaw beat me to it, but stated it more concisely

This whole post exactly. Chris gets it.

[Primer]

I would only note that a player doesn't just become something unless he is given the opportunity to do so. Being the third or fourth option is not going to put Barnes in a position to maximize his potential. This is true in the NBA and every other job/industry. Barnes' max under the current player is mix is what he did the first two seasons. It won't change much cause they've got too many 'stars' to keep happy and Pascal and Fred are never going to take a back seat to Barnes. Why would they? It's their team.

Not advocating one way or another but the context is important here - it's not just about past on-court performance.

Great post. Slaw also gets it.

[Kagemusha]

Jokic is also a good 3pt shooter. You can't leave him alone on the perimeter.

I wish Scottie was a mini Jokic but he's just not.

relative to Giannis and Kawhi, Scottie plays more like the Joker.
He's not the bucket getter type, he wants to involve his team mates.

[Primer]

relative to Giannis and Kawhi, Scottie plays more like the Joker.
He's not the bucket getter type, he wants to involve his team mates.

I mean sure, if we're gonna compare him to 3 guys he's not very similar to.

[Kagemusha]

I mean sure, if we're gonna compare him to 3 guys he's not very similar to.

Who is Scottie similar to?

[Primer]

Who is Scottie similar to?

I still like the Magic comp.

[MixxAOR]

Who is Scottie similar to?

Boris Diaw style wise