Everything Derozan

[JWash]

The Rudy Gay return was not particularly good in either trade. Expiring Jose and Ed Davis or GV/Salmons/Hayes/Patterson are both uninspiring.

Jeff Green and Teletovic might be a bit redundant but at $10M on a 2 yr deal, yeah I'd be interested. Teletovic is a pretty good shooter to bring off the bench behind Carroll (and our bench clearly needs help) while Green could be a small ball starting PF.

Also gotta remember that Rudy was making close to 20M under a ~60M cap. DeMar would be making that under a 100M cap. 33% of the cap vs. 20% is a significant difference making DD much more tradeable on his deal.

The idea of letting DD walk to sign Jeff Green and Teletovic and hoping that Ross can become a starting caliber SG does not seem like a good one to me. Jeff Green is terrible at the 4 spot. He doesn't rebound effectively at all and can't protect the rim or even guard the post effectively. This does not seem like a smart plan.

[Axel]

Also gotta remember that Rudy was making close to 20M under a ~60M cap. DeMar would be making that under a 100M cap. 33% of the cap vs. 20% is a significant difference making DD much more tradeable on his deal.

Rudy is also more talented than Demar.

[slamdunk23]

The Rudy Gay return was not particularly good in either trade. Expiring Jose and Ed Davis or GV/Salmons/Hayes/Patterson are both uninspiring.

Jeff Green and Teletovic might be a bit redundant but at $10M on a 2 yr deal, yeah I'd be interested. Teletovic is a pretty good shooter to bring off the bench behind Carroll (and our bench clearly needs help) while Green could be a small ball starting PF.

The rudy example was more to show that unlike what most people on here think a DD contract at 110/5 will not be an unmovable contract.

Also in a vacuum I would much rather have DD then green & Teletovic. DD gives you a competitive team that makes the playoffs that could get better with additions. A green & Teletovic team gives you a worse team that won't make the playoffs but still not bad enough for a tank rebuild.

DD may be an inefficient player but he is one of our only players that can actually create offense for himself.

[A.I]

Rudy is also more talented than Demar.

Sometimes I wish we kept him instead of DD.

[slamdunk23]

Rudy is also more talented than Demar.

Debatable they offer almost the exact same production.

[JWash]

Rudy is also more talented than Demar.

At the time Rudy was traded to the Raptors he was putting up 17-6-3 for Memphis on 17 shots and 47.8 TS%. That was over a 42 game stretch. DeRozan has never played that poorly... ever over such a long stretch.

The year before Rudy put up 19-6-3 on 52.1 TS%, which is closer to DD's level of play but not quite there. So we can sit here and argue about who's more talented but the reality is the way DD is playing this year and played in 2013-14 is better than anything that Rudy did in Memphis or Toronto.

Anthony Randolph is also more "talented" than DeMar, it's about production. Rudy came here and had the same role DeRozan does now and absolutely wet the bed. At least DD is competent in it and not producing insufferable barrages of bricks. People talking about rather having kept Gay than DeRozan need to really check their hindsight goggles. Rudy was BAD here and making a lot of money to suck. His TS% was 46.8% in the 18 games before we dealt him and he had a WS/48 of 0.021, taking 18.6 shots per game to score 19.4pts. You realize if DeRozan shot that much he would be scoring probably over 25ppg right?

[Axel]

The rudy example was more to show that unlike what most people on here think a DD contract at 110/5 will not be an unmovable contract.

Also in a vacuum I would much rather have DD then green & Teletovic. DD gives you a competitive team that makes the playoffs that could get better with additions. A green & Teletovic team gives you a worse team that won't make the playoffs but still not bad enough for a tank rebuild.

DD may be an inefficient player but he is one of our only players that can actually create offense for himself.

Going against "in a vacuum" assessments is really the crux of my point. Fit and need to find value.

And I never said he was untradable (although JWash keeps arguing it like I did), I think the opportunity cost is too high. Money is better spent elsewhere to keep flexibility and cap space than to simply keep DD, who's trade return on a poor contract would not be significant.

[A.I]

At the time Rudy was traded to the Raptors he was putting up 17-6-3 for Memphis on 17 shots and 47.8 TS%. That was over a 42 game stretch. DeRozan has never played that poorly... ever over such a long stretch.

The year before Rudy put up 19-6-3 on 52.1 TS%, which is closer to DD's level of play but not quite there. So we can sit here and argue about who's more talented but the reality is the way DD is playing this year and played in 2013-14 is better than anything that Rudy did in Memphis or Toronto.

Anthony Randolph is also more "talented" than DeMar, it's about production. Rudy came here and had the same role DeRozan does now and absolutely wet the bed.

Because Rudy and DD are similar players and couldn't coexist. Rudy shot more efficiently before he came to Toronto and after he was traded.

[Axel]

At the time Rudy was traded to the Raptors he was putting up 17-6-3 for Memphis on 17 shots and 47.8 TS%. That was over a 42 game stretch. DeRozan has never played that poorly... ever over such a long stretch.

The year before Rudy put up 19-6-3 on 52.1 TS%, which is closer to DD's level of play but not quite there. So we can sit here and argue about who's more talented but the reality is the way DD is playing this year and played in 2013-14 is better than anything that Rudy did in Memphis or Toronto.

Anthony Randolph is also more "talented" than DeMar, it's about production. Rudy came here and had the same role DeRozan does now and absolutely wet the bed.

Well Rudy's production in Memphis would be more relevant than his production in Sacramento.

Part of Rudy's failure is the poor fit next to Derozan. One needed to come off the bench for it to work. Don't you think Memphis would have preferred the "fit and need approach to value contracts" rather than what they gave Gay?

[Snooch]

I didn't say it was.

I said he'd become the team's highest paid player, while effectively preventing them from signing a true #1 option (or an equal player at a position of need, such as PF).

The main crux of my post was that most people tend to agree that Casey's system and/or DeRozan's style are not the most effective. At least one of them needs to go. In a new system DeRozan could become a better (more efficient and more well rounded) overall player, but without being such a high-usage ball-dominant focal point of the team, he suddenly wouldn't command such a high salary.

I think he should be paid no more than $15-17M per season. For the record, I also think Carroll is overpaid by at least $2-3M per season, for comparison purposes.

That's a pricey gamble. To pay demar 20 million and hope that he performs better in a better system with a better coach.

Trade him for player you know will fit and take the gamble out



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[Axel]

DD may be an inefficient player but he is one of our only players that can actually create offense for himself.

Also to this point, so he has qualities of a good 6th man. Did Carroll create for himself last year in Atlanta to be successful? Does Kwahi consistently beat his man off the bounce?

In a balanced offence, DD's strengths are minimized.

[slamdunk23]

Going against "in a vacuum" assessments is really the crux of my point. Fit and need to find value.

And I never said he was untradable (although JWash keeps arguing it like I did), I think the opportunity cost is too high. Money is better spent elsewhere to keep flexibility and cap space than to simply keep DD, who's trade return on a poor contract would not be significant.

But if we let DD walk we get no return for him.

If we spend money on players that you think might fit we lose our flexibility anyways. Also those players values are big unknowns at least we know what DD offers.

I think a better strategy would be to try and improve our roster and our biggest need (a starting caliber 4) through the draft and trades.

[JWash]

Well Rudy's production in Memphis would be more relevant than his production in Sacramento.

Part of Rudy's failure is the poor fit next to Derozan. One needed to come off the bench for it to work. Don't you think Memphis would have preferred the "fit and need approach to value contracts" rather than what they gave Gay?

If Rudy was a poor fit next to DeRozan, wouldn't DeRozan therefore have also been a poor fit next to Rudy? Why was his play not suffering to the same extent? I don't mean to be facetious but it's starting to seem like DD is the only one who isn't allowed to have excuses for poor play. His reason is because he's going out there and freestyle iso-balling instead of playing team ball, but Gay was bad because he didn't fit with DD and Ross is bad because we don't have a good system for shooters... Like let's try to be a little bit more fair guys

[JWash]

But if we let DD walk we get no return for him.

If we spend money on players that you think might fit we lose our flexibility anyways. Also those players values are big unknowns at least we know what DD offers.

I think a better strategy would be to try and improve our roster and our biggest need (a starting caliber 4) through the draft and trades.

This basically ends the debate. Essentially.

Those players suggested at BEST marginally improve the team, at worst mess up chemistry and make it worse. You gain zero flexibility, and they're not even good trade assets. Makes little sense to make that play. I get dropping DD to go after a big fish but not for that.

[slamdunk23]

Also to this point, so he has qualities of a good 6th man. Did Carroll create for himself last year in Atlanta to be successful? Does Kwahi consistently beat his man off the bounce?

In a balanced offence, DD's strengths are minimized.

But you still need at least 3 players in your lineup that can create for themselves to have a good offense.

A balanced offense can only take you so far, SA & Atlanta both have multiple skilled players that can score by themselves if they need to.