Poeltl & Pascal - The 2016 Draft

[russellhantz]

Or based on the poll results people are choosing who they think is the best player.

Yes exactly. So why are people thinking Skal and Davis are the best players? Because people value some attributes over others.

So lets say we are evaluating for Motor, Shooting, Playmaking. How would we rank these players?

Chriss
Poeltl
Skal
Luwawu
Ellenson
Sabonis
Valentine
Davis

Or if we think that is a silly discussion who is the better motor/shooter/playmaker between Davis and Skal?

[Axel]

Yes exactly. So why are people thinking Skal and Davis are the best players? Because people value some attributes over others.

So lets say we are evaluating for Motor, Shooting, Playmaking. How would we rank these players?

Chriss
Poeltl
Skal
Luwawu
Ellenson
Sabonis
Valentine
Davis

Or if we think that is a silly discussion who is the better motor/shooter/playmaker between Davis and Skal?

Of just those criteria and players, Valentine would likely be number 1 by a mile. He is clearly the best play maker, rates as probably the best shooter and while motor is typically used to describe bigs, Valentine plays heavy minutes and heavy usage, so clearly doesn't take plays off.

But that's a pretty odd combo to look at. 2 wings and 6 bigs.

[russellhantz]

I just used those names because they were in the poll and presumably because murray, brown and hield will be off the board before our pick.

But you singling out valentine is really interesting. So why is he ranked so low? Because he is old? Why is luwawu projected to go higher?

If we threw athleticism and defense back in. How would you guys think Valentine compares with Skal and Davis?

[Axel]

I just used those names because they were in the poll and presumably because murray, brown and hield will be off the board before our pick.

But you singling out valentine is really interesting. So why is he ranked so low? Because he is old? Why is luwawu projected to go higher?

If we threw athleticism and defense back in. How would you guys think Valentine compares with Skal and Davis?

Luwawu projects as a good wing defender and could be Valentine's equal in shooting. The biggest issues with Valentine are defence and age. Luwawu could very well be the better player, certainly has a high ceiling while Valentine has a great floor but questionable ceiling. Valentine will never be an allstar but could be a great 6th man or low end starter, and could be from day one.

Davis is my preferred choice at 9 with Luwawu, Skal likely next in line (assuming no one like Brown or Murray falls).

[Ballenthusiast]

The Simmons/Ingram debate is ridiculous. Many of you don't seem to grasp how good a playmaker Ben really is, he's often referred to as a point forward but he really has point guard level of court awareness. It's uncanny for a guy that big and and strong and you just don't see that very often. He is absolutely someone you can build around and will be a hell of a player. Also, I honestly think Luwawu is very overrated and will not be a lottery pick. He's already 21, doesn't have a consistent 3 and Taurean Prince is a better wing prospect if we're going to go that route.

[DogeLover1234]

Ellenson catching a little too much hate. Yes, he is going to struggle on D in his first couple years but, so did JV. That's why we have coaches to coach him up.

Offensively he's the best player in our current range. Especially at position where we got nothing from offensively in the Eastern Conference Finals.

I disagree with the second part. I think that Sabonis is a better offensive player. Ellenson has a better handle, but as an actual passer I would say that Sabonis is better. Also much more polished on the block, great finisher around the rim. At this point both of their shots' is more potential and won't likely be good in their rookie years, but they both have pretty good mechanics.

Seems to me that the biggest lesson form these playoffs for any team is that it is very hard for guys who only play good offense to play heavy minutes in meaningful games. Teams are too smart to let you get away with that. This is my biggest hesitation with Ellenson, especially considering he won't be a go to offensive option.

[DogeLover1234]

Luwawu projects as a good wing defender and could be Valentine's equal in shooting. The biggest issues with Valentine are defence and age. Luwawu could very well be the better player, certainly has a high ceiling while Valentine has a great floor but questionable ceiling. Valentine will never be an allstar but could be a great 6th man or low end starter, and could be from day one.

Davis is my preferred choice at 9 with Luwawu, Skal likely next in line (assuming no one like Brown or Murray falls).

If I were to give Valentine a comp, I would say greivis vasquez, as guys who really are big point guards who struggle on defense, but are good playmakers and shooters. Not perfect, but fits with what you say about Valentine being a 6 man.

[Ballenthusiast]

Skal is the perfect example of every tool in the shed with no motivation and mental toughness.
The ONLY reason he may get drafted in the lottery is because of the fact that he played at Kentucky. Most of us view the draft as window-shopping for the best looking thing. These kids are human just like all of us and most of them aren't cut out for the NBA despite having all these projectable qualities.

[Axel]

If I were to give Valentine a comp, I would say greivis vasquez, as guys who really are big point guards who struggle on defense, but are good playmakers and shooters. Not perfect, but fits with what you say about Valentine being a 6 man.

Which is funny because that is the comp Valentine gave himself to much mockery.

He's a hard player to peg. I think he'll be better than Vasquez. Reddick is another name that comes to mind but really he's probably a mix of the two. Not as good a shooter as Reddick though. Brandon Roy style of offence is what I picture, a good mix of play making and scoring.

[Bonus Jonas]

Bonus Jonas' Big Board (specifically for Raptors)

1. Ben Simmons
2. Brandon Ingram
3. Dragan Bender
4. Jamal Murray
5. Jaylen Brown
6. Kris Dunn
7. Timothe Luwawu
8. Marquese Chriss
9. Skal Labissiere
10. Deyonta Davis

Wouldn't want us drafting anyone else.

[Maury]

I don't know why we wouldn't value defence and athleticism... Those are attributes of a solid NBA player. Are you saying we should look at primo and say "forget about the defence and athleticism, those are skewing our opinions!"? That's ridiculous.

[Maury]

Which is funny because that is the comp Valentine gave himself to much mockery.

He's a hard player to peg. I think he'll be better than Vasquez. Reddick is another name that comes to mind but really he's probably a mix of the two. Not as good a shooter as Reddick though. Brandon Roy style of offence is what I picture, a good mix of play making and scoring.

The funny part is he would compare himself to Vasquez. Talk about digging yourself a whole.

[DogeLover1234]

Bonus Jonas' Big Board (specifically for Raptors)

1. Ben Simmons
2. Brandon Ingram
3. Dragan Bender
4. Jamal Murray
5. Jaylen Brown
6. Kris Dunn
7. Timothe Luwawu
8. Marquese Chriss
9. Skal Labissiere
10. Deyonta Davis

Wouldn't want us drafting anyone else.

I generally agree, although im not as high on Luwawu as you. Shooting is still a questionmark amd not sold on his offensive game. I also have kind of talked myself into Sabonis in that top 10.

[big boi]

The comparison come from them both being slow footed. Both of them struggling in PnR situations. How are you going to judge intend off a 5 minute video made to highlight his weaknesses. Ellenson is known to be a high motor player. I doubt that motor only runs one side of the ball. He just needs to know where to be and that comes with experience in the league. Which is what JV has ganined over the years.

You can doubt what you want. Slow footed - JV is a centre. I don't expect him to guard guards on the perimeter any more than I'd expect a guard to defend him down low.

I don't know what you mean by motor. I'm not doubting his fitness. I'm doubting his willingness to play defence. A lot of defence is effort. There are skills and ability but you have to want to play defence. You have to have that determination to beat your opposite number. To not let him score on you.

Show me a 5 minute video of turnstile defence by JV and maybe I'll be convinced.

[big boi]

I disagree with the second part. I think that Sabonis is a better offensive player. Ellenson has a better handle, but as an actual passer I would say that Sabonis is better. Also much more polished on the block, great finisher around the rim. At this point both of their shots' is more potential and won't likely be good in their rookie years, but they both have pretty good mechanics.

Seems to me that the biggest lesson form these playoffs for any team is that it is very hard for guys who only play good offense to play heavy minutes in meaningful games. Teams are too smart to let you get away with that. This is my biggest hesitation with Ellenson, especially considering he won't be a go to offensive option.

At this point I take Sabonis hands down over Ellenson.