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  • planetmars wrote: View Post

    Again it's a 2-way sport. How are Ingram, Mitchell and Murray defensively? Or Bam's usage in comparison?
    I would trade him for 3 of those players... meaning his value is lower in my opinion. Tatum, Booker, Fox, Mitchell, Murray, KAT and possibly Bam and Brown are all players I wouldn't think twice about trading Pascal straight up for. So, meaning he's not quite there yet. I'm not saying he won't get there, I'm still a big fan of his... I'm just being honest with my fandom.

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    • saints91 wrote: View Post

      I would trade him for 3 of those players... meaning his value is lower in my opinion. Tatum, Booker, Fox, Mitchell, Murray, KAT and possibly Bam and Brown are all players I wouldn't think twice about trading Pascal straight up for. So, meaning he's not quite there yet. I'm not saying he won't get there, I'm still a big fan of his... I'm just being honest with my fandom.
      The only guy I'd take over Pascal from that list is Tatum. I value 2-way players more than just 1-way scoring machines. Booker/Murray/Mitchell are in that group. But guys that put up buckets get you paid. And Pascal needs work there. So I get it.



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      • planetmars wrote: View Post

        What is your expectation for the contract? He's gotten a bit more than the rookie max extension because he made an all-nba team. But that contract was deserved. It's the same contract that guys like Adebayo, Murray, Fox, Ingram, Mitchell got. He might have made a little more because of that bonus, but it's essentially the same contract.

        He's a really good (elite even), #2 player. The big difference between him and guys like Murray, Mitchell and Ingram is that he can play defense.
        word. if you can take that contract and trade it for something like two out of the three warriors assets that included last year's number 2 overall and two lottery picks this year, or perhaps even all three of those assets (and some people thought even that wasn't enough*), then the dude has gotta be considered a pretty strong asset and by definition a "good contract".

        i love pascal and am not advocating for a trade. just pointing out that it doesn't make sense to me how some folks think he's highly overpaid yet want to trade him for a massive haul.

        * yes i understand the warriors deal would have included wiggins, but with only two years left on it and the way he played last year i don't view it as such a negative asset

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        • planetmars wrote: View Post

          The only guy I'd take over Pascal from that list is Tatum. I value 2-way players more than just 1-way scoring machines. Booker/Murray/Mitchell are in that group. But guys that put up buckets get you paid. And Pascal needs work there. So I get it.
          Jaylen Brown is one of the better comps for Pascal, IMO. He's a 2-way player with higher usage & similar ORTG. Brown got $26.7M AAV vs. $32.2 AAV for Pascal. In the last year, the salary difference is $7.4M. That type of flexibility is important when you're trying to fill in your roster. And you can't even just compare them straight-up. The problem with over-paying a guy like Pascal is that he needs to do more than Brown to justify the overpay amount that restricts the team from making other roster moves..... even something simple like paying decent money for a competent center.

          (edit: 32.2M AAV for Pascal)
          Last edited by golden; Mon Aug 30, 2021, 06:24 PM.

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          • Yuri Gagarin wrote: View Post

            yes his recent play thank you. I’ll take silly or wrong over smug and arrogant any day of the week kid
            Quite a stance to take. But you are of course welcome to it.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • golden wrote: View Post

              Jaylen Brown is one of the better comps for Pascal, IMO. He's a 2-way player with higher usage & similar ORTG. Brown got $26.7M AAV vs. $36.2 AAV for Pascal. In the last year, the salary difference is $7.4M. That type of flexibility is important when you're trying to fill in your roster. And you can't even just compare them straight-up. The problem with over-paying a guy like Pascal is that he needs to do more than Brown to justify the overpay amount that restricts the team from making other roster moves..... even something simple like paying decent money for a competent center.
              i believe he and pascal signed their extensions the same summer. pascal was a much better player than brown in the year preceding the extension, and was coming off a championship. he'd be on a max deal too if he signed it a year later.

              those circumstances don't make pascal an overpay. it makes jaylen brown a bargain.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                Jaylen Brown is one of the better comps for Pascal, IMO. He's a 2-way player with higher usage & similar ORTG. Brown got $26.7M AAV vs. $36.2 AAV for Pascal. In the last year, the salary difference is $7.4M. That type of flexibility is important when you're trying to fill in your roster. And you can't even just compare them straight-up. The problem with over-paying a guy like Pascal is that he needs to do more than Brown to justify the overpay amount that restricts the team from making other roster moves..... even something simple like paying decent money for a competent center.
                Brown put up MIP type numbers a year into his deal (lucky Boston). Pascal did it a year before his deal, hence the difference.

                The year before Brown got his extension he put up 13.0 points, 4.2 rebounds and 1.4 assists on 47/34/66 shooting. Basically he got the Trent Jr bump.

                The year before Pascal got his extension he put up 16.9 points, 6.9 rebounds and 3.1 assists on 55/37/79 shooting, and won MIP, and came off a title.

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                • planetmars wrote: View Post

                  Brown put up MIP type numbers a year into his deal (lucky Boston). Pascal did it a year before his deal, hence the difference.

                  The year before Brown got his extension he put up 13.0 points, 4.2 rebounds and 1.4 assists on 47/34/66 shooting. Basically he got the Trent Jr bump.

                  The year before Pascal got his extension he put up 16.9 points, 6.9 rebounds and 3.1 assists on 55/37/79 shooting, and won MIP, and came off a title.
                  Siakam was basically being compared to taytum at the time

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                  • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                    I rest my case
                    yeah I kind of don't get this point?

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                    • golden wrote: View Post

                      Exactly. Raptors have their first off-year in a decade (which, itself, is highly explainable) and GMs and big market media are circling like vultures.

                      The main reason Pascal is in rumors is because he's been put into a role (i.e. Kawhi replacement) that makes him look bad at the worst possible times. And for some reason, even our own fanbase is turning on him because of that. Not his fault - who else on this team is supposed to carry that load?

                      Otherwise, GMs know that Pascal is a very good-to-great player, who is a proven championship calibre #2 guy.
                      9 straight playoffs runs

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                      • I feel like people unnecessarily just feel negatively about siakam because of the bubble. He wasn't bad during this season. Had a few times where he missed game winning shots but he wasn't bad. There was games where he would shoot 39 points on good efficiency... miss the game winning shot and people would focus on evyerthing else..

                        We wouldn't be in the position to even go for the game winner with out the guy. Two way guys aren't just hanging off the tree. Our overall basketball was a good style and fun to watch but if we trade our best player overall we will see the team quickly fall off a darn cliff. I don't think people even Tim W. truly understand what it means to take that approach towards team building. There isn't necessarily even a guarantee. There also isn't a guarantee of a good pick even. So the best you can hope is if you are around the 10th spot ok you tank out kind of like how the raptors did and then hope and pray that luck goes your way.. which it did. That is still not guaranteed. It really changes tanking alot. Also most of the bad teams have traded there assets. I think if you are always looking to tear down the team you end up like the kings where its hard to ever get any momentum to build it up. Again if we are trading Siakam then we should also be talking about trading Fred as well. No point in a half-ass attempt. I don't think people recognize how much worse we would get. For example there seems to be a love affair with those who dislike siakam with the supposed GSW package.


                        So you are getting Wiggins who is worse than Siakam but probably not worse enough to allow us to outtank the tankiest teams. It also means you are putting a ton of hopes on a lot of young players. One of which (the proposed real center piece of the deal) Wiseman hasn't shown any consistent or real ability to demonstrate the basketball IQ on the offensive or defensive end to not frustrate the heck out of our fan base. Again people may think I am mean with the Wiseman dislike but he is giving me serious Hassan Whiteside vibes. He has the body looks athletic... but will we will see whether or not that translates to actual winning play.


                        Then there is the culture aspect. Having a few guys on the roster beyond OG to be the voice of calm and reason like fred and siakam, where they have actually won a chip before helps ALOT. It helps from a respect level, development level. It helps in a ton of ways. Scottie is too raw to be the guy yet, and again why are we trading our best player to make space for a rookie who hasn't played an nba minute yet. I like Scottie but lets be real. Him becoming a good shooter and all that isn't happening over night.


                        We have a great system where we don't have to force guys into minutes. We can bring everyone along slowly and patiently. We have everyone on the right contracts except trent... but at least its a short term deal at that number. We can pivot in any direction.


                        Also if Barnes plays well to start the season that still isn't a signal to just hit the eject button on your best player. You try and make it work with all 3 on the court in minutes. I still think some sort of variation of that could REALLY be something.



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                        • If Barnes is really ready to rock the we've got ourselves a Spurs-Duncan situation - spring right back towards contention with our key veteran pieces still intact. Spurs had a fully veteran team though.
                          Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:22 PM.

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                          • I don’t know if you guys have noticed, but there’s always one player that gets shit on... I guess that ire is on Siakam now.

                            Siakam is a great player, and I think he can reach higher levels. The last 2 seasons are *not* indicative of him as a player.

                            I’m tired of the negativity around a guy who has done nothing but worked hard at his craft and embraced the city.
                            Last edited by saints91; Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:45 AM.

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                            • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                              If Barnes is really ready to rock the we've got ourselves a Spurs-Duncan situation - spring right back towards contention with our key veteran pieces still intact. Spurs had a fully veteran team though.
                              The ideal scenario here is while Siakam is recovering from the surgery, Scottie starts at PF, does great, and becomes an essential part of our starting unit. Then when Siakam is back, Nurse has no choice but send Birch to the bench instead of Scottie, and we can truly start our best 5.
                              2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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                              • saints91 wrote: View Post
                                I don’t know if you guys have noticed, but there’s always one player that gets shit on... I guess that ire is on Siakam now.

                                Siakam is a great player, and I think he can reach higher levels. The last 2 seasons are indicative of him as a player.

                                I’m tired of the negativity around a guy who has done nothing but worked hard at his craft and embraced the city.
                                That too. He wants to be here.

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