Everything Pascal Siakam

[LJ2]

There is an eventual tipping point. Pascal/OG/Scottie will all be making a lot of money. Worst case it would be 35%, 30% and 25% of the cap.. Or 90% of the salary cap for 3 players. Two of which play fairly similar.

Maybe we can get Pascal at 30% and OG at 25%. Scottie will still likely get the full rookie max or 25%. that's still 80%. Hopefully OG settles for what Murray got which is about 17% of the cap.

Do note some of that will go down as the cap is likely to go up 10% every year for the foreseeable future.


But it's something that this front office is likely thinking about hard.

Yeah, securing the assets with the idea of flipping them later is what I mean. We need as many assets as we can get to start rebuilding around Scottie.

[planetmars]

Yeah, securing the assets with the idea of flipping them later is what I mean. We need as many assets as we can get to start rebuilding around Scottie.

Okay, yeah I agree there. Scottie gets his max extension after this year, so won't kick in until 2025-2026. That's 2 seasons from now. I think we should try to bring back all three. And then try to trade one (or both) by 2025 summer.

Hopefully we can do that without having to give the full max to OG, and the full super max to Pascal. It will make it easier to trade one or both if we have to. It also gives Scottie time to figure out if he can be the man going forward.

Pascal and Scottie getting in the way of each other is still a concern. But that's the downside of drafting Scottie and going with BPA when we did.

[Primer]

Oh so now losing Fred makes us worse? Interesting rebound from your takes earlier in the year. I completely agree with it.. just weird that you changed your stance so quickly.

Replacing Fred with Shroeder is a wash at best. I said presumably on purpose because I don't think it will make us worse but a lot of you guys do.

[Primer]

No guarantees with land top 6 of the draft though and that's a lot of losing for Scottie to live through in his 3rd year. We can't assume he's going to feel great about resigning with a team if they are getting worse at the time he starts considering extensions. Usually teams are really bad in the rookie and sophomore years of a young star and the team is improving as they reach those types of decisions so there's a good feeling about signing an extension. We'd be doing the opposite to Scottie.

The purpose of keeping Pascal would be to resign him and trade him for a better package down the line when the fear of him walking isn't there for the team trading for him.

I'd rather Scottie go through some losing as the leader of this team than keep playing out of position next to Pascal so we can be the 9th seed again. Scottie will be more inclined to stay with a team building around him than a team paying max money to a guy playing his position and hindering his development.

[chris]

Okay, yeah I agree there. Scottie gets his max extension after this year, so won't kick in until 2025-2026. That's 2 seasons from now. I think we should try to bring back all three. And then try to trade one (or both) by 2025 summer.

Hopefully we can do that without having to give the full max to OG, and the full super max to Pascal. It will make it easier to trade one or both if we have to. It also gives Scottie time to figure out if he can be the man going forward.

Pascal and Scottie getting in the way of each other is still a concern. But that's the downside of drafting Scottie and going with BPA when we did.

i can't stress enough how much i'd rather just take a lesser return now than wait until scottie is going into his 5th season before we start shaping the roster around him.

just trade him now while he's still on a rookie deal if that's the case

[golden]

Okay, yeah I agree there. Scottie gets his max extension after this year, so won't kick in until 2025-2026. That's 2 seasons from now. I think we should try to bring back all three. And then try to trade one (or both) by 2025 summer.

Hopefully we can do that without having to give the full max to OG, and the full super max to Pascal. It will make it easier to trade one or both if we have to. It also gives Scottie time to figure out if he can be the man going forward.

Pascal and Scottie getting in the way of each other is still a concern. But that's the downside of drafting Scottie and going with BPA when we did.

Yep. “Securing” non-max players at the max no longer makes them an asset. They become liabilities. At a minimum they will get crap returns back in trades.

[Rudy Bargnani]

There is an eventual tipping point. Pascal/OG/Scottie will all be making a lot of money. Worst case it would be 35%, 30% and 25% of the cap.. Or 90% of the salary cap for 3 players. Two of which play fairly similar.

Maybe we can get Pascal at 30% and OG at 25%. Scottie will still likely get the full rookie max or 25%. that's still 80%. Hopefully OG settles for what Murray got which is about 17% of the cap.

Do note some of that will go down as the cap is likely to go up 10% every year for the foreseeable future.


But it's something that this front office is likely thinking about hard.

This is a good point. Even with Fred leaving this team could be facing money issues in 2 years if they have to overpay to keep OG. Assuming they keep the band together I mean.

$40 mill for Jak and Trent, a max for Siakam and a near max for OG and rookie extension max for Scottie is a lot of money and probably nowhere close to a championship contender. Let alone Precious’s extension.
which begs the question what would their plan have been if Fred took the $30 mill per year.

From afar certainly looks like the team is lacking direction or a plan.

[golden]

This is a good point. Even with Fred leaving this team could be facing money issues in 2 years if they have to overpay to keep OG. Assuming they keep the band together I mean.

$40 mill for Jak and Trent, a max for Siakam and a near max for OG and rookie extension max for Scottie is a lot of money and probably nowhere close to a championship contender. Let alone Precious’s extension.
which begs the question what would their plan have been if Fred took the $30 mill per year.

From afar certainly looks like the team is lacking direction or a plan.

The plan WAS to keep paying the championship DNA culture core (Fred, OG, Pascal & Nurse), because Masai & Bobby smugly thought they had uncovered the magic formula for winning.

But everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. And they are staggering right now.

[planetmars]

This is a good point. Even with Fred leaving this team could be facing money issues in 2 years if they have to overpay to keep OG. Assuming they keep the band together I mean.

$40 mill for Jak and Trent, a max for Siakam and a near max for OG and rookie extension max for Scottie is a lot of money and probably nowhere close to a championship contender. Let alone Precious’s extension.
which begs the question what would their plan have been if Fred took the $30 mill per year.

From afar certainly looks like the team is lacking direction or a plan.

It's the same plan he had with Kyle and DeMar which was to iteratively build and compete and then go all in. The sticky point happens in 2025.. 2 years from now as that is when Scottie gets his raise. He likely wanted to give Fred/Pascal/OG comfortably 1-2 more years. And now with a new coach. Fred's gone so only 2 guys left. But that same plan is likely there unless someone blows him out of the water with a Pascal offer he can't refuse.

My worry is that they hurt their relationship with Pascal by having him out there in trade rumours. But maybe that can get fixed in house.

[planetmars]

Yep. “Securing” non-max players at the max no longer makes them an asset. They become liabilities. At a minimum they will get crap returns back in trades.

There will be a point of no return for non-star players.

But I don't think Pascal will have that issue for a few years. He's not a locker room cancer. Has been pretty healthy for most of his career (outside that shoulder injury and covid). He's won a championship with a star player as the #2 or #3 player (depending on how you view Lowry that season). And has at least two all-nba's now.. and could be more. Plus he's largely been viewed as a 2-way player which is rare.

And I think he can be brought back for less than 35% of the cap. Even if he makes all-nba. I could see him taking 31% or 32%. Which would still be more than any other team could give him.. but not to the point where he's massively overpaid.

[LJ2]

I don't really understand what the concern is with giving Pascal or OG or both a max contract. Houston just gave Fred Van Vleet a max. It's not because he's part of their long term future, or at least not in the capacity as their franchise player(s). That's still Green, Smith, Sengun, Whitmore or whomever emerges as their best players.

Assuming Raps are rebuilding around Scottie then just secure the assets and trade them before it becomes a problem. At present we're so far from contending or competing at a high level so not sure why it matters. Those guys aren't likely to be on the team when the next competitive window opens up for this team.

[chris]

I don't really understand what the concern is with giving Pascal or OG or both a max contract. Houston just gave Fred Van Vleet a max. It's not because he's part of their long term future, or at least not in the capacity as their franchise player(s). That's still Green, Smith, Sengun, Whitmore or whomever emerges as their best players.

Assuming Raps are rebuilding around Scottie then just secure the assets and trade them before it becomes a problem. At present we're so far from contending or competing at a high level so not sure why it matters. Those guys aren't likely to be on the team when the next competitive window opens up for this team.

it's much less about money to me and much more about squandering the opportunity to maximize scottie's development by delaying rebuilding around him until his 5th season, as PM is advocating for. players typically see the biggest growth in those early years, after which growth is more incremental (if there's any growth at all). in that scenario we will have spent the first 4 years of scottie's career playing two guys together whose respective skillsets clash and who flat out make each other worse.

i recommend that RR podcast with caitlin cooper that skywalker posted in the other thread for all the nitty-gritty details on how that pairing does not and will not work, if it wasn't evident from watching this team last year

edit - all the above only applies to pascal obviously. OG's skillset compliments scottie's and i have no issue paying him whatever is needed to keep him

[LJ2]

it's much less about money to me and much more about squandering the opportunity to maximize scottie's development by delaying rebuilding around him until his 5th season, as PM is advocating for. players typically see the biggest growth in those early years, after which growth is more incremental (if there's any growth at all). in that scenario we will have spent the first 4 years of scottie's career playing two guys together whose respective skillsets clash and who flat out make each other worse.

i recommend that RR podcast with caitlin cooper that skywalker posted in the other thread for all the nitty-gritty details on how that pairing does not and will not work, if it wasn't evident from watching this team last year

edit - all the above only applies to pascal obviously. OG's skillset compliments scottie's and i have no issue paying him whatever is needed to keep him

The thing is, what Pascal and possibly OG turn into in terms of assets coming back in a trade is hugely relevant to the future of this team. Without a good return you're adding years at the bottom of the league trying to draft good players to surround Scottie with (this year not even counting since we likely don't have a pick). If you can't trade Pascal for a good return this off season you have to extend or resign and then trade when he becomes trade eligible. Might be career suicide for management to fumble this.

[Primer]

Yeah, securing the assets with the idea of flipping them later is what I mean. We need as many assets as we can get to start rebuilding around Scottie.

Problem with retaining Pascal as an asset is we can't trade him for 6 months post extension. So unless we extend him before September he won't be trade eligible at the deadline. Plus the oft mentioned this will be another season wasting Scottie's development having him play next to Pascal.

[Primer]

The thing is, what Pascal and possibly OG turn into in terms of assets coming back in a trade is hugely relevant to the future of this team. Without a good return you're adding years at the bottom of the league trying to draft good players to surround Scottie with (this year not even counting since we likely don't have a pick). If you can't trade Pascal for a good return this off season you have to extend or resign and then trade when he becomes trade eligible. Might be career suicide for management to fumble this.

There's no guarantee we get some monster return for a resigned Pascal. The only guarantee is it wastes another year of Scottie's development.