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  • tDotted wrote: View Post
    JV is about as much of a role player as Derrick Favors or Reggie Jackson
    Well, that doesn't really clarify your opinion to me but it's interesting. Favors is the type of guy that I might like to do a three team trade for involving jv bc he might be replaced by lyles/contract reasons. Reggie was indirectly the return for kanter. I think kanter fills the kind of role in OKC that Christian was describing for jv on the raps but maybe I misunderstood?

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    • tDotted wrote: View Post
      JV is about as much of a role player as Derrick Favors or Reggie Jackson
      I.e.
      they're not.

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      • tDotted wrote: View Post
        I.e.
        they're not.
        I like those players but Reggie was a backup traded for a 6th man scoring big that subs in for a defensive big on a 4th seed team.
        Favors may be replaced by a 2nd yr player soon on a 6ish seed team. There's contracts involved but it's also about fit next to a defensive centre. Both players have a higher offensive responsibility in part bc they play with defensive centers. Jv is the opposite. He is an average defensive centre that plays with very offensive, allstar guards. His role is more limited and subservient. He has allstar potential like those players but he won't achieve it unless his role is increased.
        We could replace his rebounding and screens with a better defender like bogut. That's not a core player. It's a good starting role player. Definitely not a big 3. Maybe Casey will increase his role, maybe not but he definitely has to defend or he will get benched.

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        • We need better definitions.

          A role player is someone who fills a specific role. On this team, JV is a role player. He's there to grab rebounds and occasionally score inside.

          In the wider NBA, Jonas is probably viewed as having the potential to be more than a role player.


          A core player (to me) is someone who your team is built around and who would most likely not be traded. By this definition JV is not a core player in Toronto.

          In the wider NBA he would be a core player on several other teams.

          Saying he's a role player on the Raptors doesn't mean he is a role player overall. That's just how we're using him.

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          • Scraptor wrote: View Post
            We need better definitions.

            A role player is someone who fills a specific role. On this team, JV is a role player. He's there to grab rebounds and occasionally score inside.

            In the wider NBA, Jonas is probably viewed as having the potential to be more than a role player.


            A core player (to me) is someone who your team is built around and who would most likely not be traded. By this definition JV is not a core player in Toronto.

            In the wider NBA he would be a core player on several other teams.

            Saying he's a role player on the Raptors doesn't mean he is a role player overall. That's just how we're using him.
            I think for me another issue comes up when limiting the definition to right now. At this moment, he is certainly used as a role player in this system (though a very key one, in my opinion). But in terms of the future of the franchise, and in terms of planning for when Lowry starts to decline, he seems to be irrefutably a key part of the core going forward. There's room for everyone to be right, here.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • Scraptor wrote: View Post
              We need better definitions.

              A role player is someone who fills a specific role. On this team, JV is a role player. He's there to grab rebounds and occasionally score inside.

              In the wider NBA, Jonas is probably viewed as having the potential to be more than a role player.


              A core player (to me) is someone who your team is built around and who would most likely not be traded. By this definition JV is not a core player in Toronto.

              In the wider NBA he would be a core player on several other teams.

              Saying he's a role player on the Raptors doesn't mean he is a role player overall. That's just how we're using him.
              Agreed. If jv is used like he was vs Detroit then I'd say he is core but I'd still bitch about defense. He's not being used that way tho. Pat is more core to me atm, even tho by your definition he may be seen a role player to the rest of the league. Imo we are asking a lot of pat and we'd be more like the blazers atm without him. Blaze are .500ish iirc

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              • DanH wrote: View Post
                I think for me another issue comes up when limiting the definition to right now. At this moment, he is certainly used as a role player in this system (though a very key one, in my opinion). But in terms of the future of the franchise, and in terms of planning for when Lowry starts to decline, he seems to be irrefutably a key part of the core going forward. There's room for everyone to be right, here.
                It's refutable if you consider league trend that there will be less favorable matchups for him as giles types keep entering the league and less nurkic types. Imo he needs to try his best to become a gasol defender and distance shooter to stay relevant beyond an offensive matchup big off the bench or net negative starter. I would not build a franchise around jv right now. He could be helped with an AD type pairing tho.

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                • DanH wrote: View Post
                  I think for me another issue comes up when limiting the definition to right now. At this moment, he is certainly used as a role player in this system (though a very key one, in my opinion). But in terms of the future of the franchise, and in terms of planning for when Lowry starts to decline, he seems to be irrefutably a key part of the core going forward. There's room for everyone to be right, here.
                  I would like to believe that he's a key part of the core in the future. But I think if we end up bringing back Kyle, which to me is a given, Jonas will be the same type of afterthought he's been here to date. I really think the only way he will be used to his capacity is if one of our two star guards is no longer on the team. (I don't think Kyle will decline for at least 2-3 more years yet.)

                  I'd love for him to remain a Raptor his whole career but what I want to happen and what I think will actually happen are unfortunately two different things.

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                  • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                    I would like to believe that he's a key part of the core in the future. But I think if we end up bringing back Kyle, which to me is a given, Jonas will be the same type of afterthought he's been here to date. I really think the only way he will be used to his capacity is if one of our two star guards is no longer on the team. (I don't think Kyle will decline for at least 2-3 more years yet.)

                    I'd love for him to remain a Raptor his whole career but what I want to happen and what I think will actually happen are unfortunately two different things.
                    I think that's a very balanced perspective. It's possible that dd was hot and he's actually closed to a low efficiency, volume shooter. In that case, it might be better to use a more balanced approach that incorporates more of jvs efficient scoring. That said, we'd likely be a bad defensive team and not get over the hump.

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                    • lewro wrote: View Post
                      I think that's a very balanced perspective. It's possible that dd was hot and he's actually closed to a low efficiency, volume shooter. In that case, it might be better to use a more balanced approach that incorporates more of jvs efficient scoring. That said, we'd likely be a bad defensive team and not get over the hump.
                      we'll be a bad defensive team as long as derozan and lowry are the only offensive options, because they're not good defenders to begin with and currently don't have the energy to put in at both ends.
                      Last edited by KHD; Sat Dec 10, 2016, 12:52 PM.

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                      • KHD wrote: View Post
                        we'll be a bad defensive team as long as derozan and lowry are the only offensive options, because they're not good defenders to begin with and currently don't have the energy to put in at both ends.
                        We weren't a bad defensive team last year, and are middle of the pack this year so far.

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                        • KHD wrote: View Post
                          we'll be a bad defensive team as long as derozan and lowry are the only offensive options, because they're not good defenders to begin with and currently don't have the energy to put in at both ends.
                          Kyle was 3rd in drpm at pg last yr. He's 13th this yr. He's not a bad defender.

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                          • KHD wrote: View Post
                            we'll be a bad defensive team as long as derozan and lowry are the only offensive options, because they're not good defenders to begin with and currently don't have the energy to put in at both ends.
                            Yet somehow Cleveland just won the title with Kyrie Irving and JR smith in the backcourt and Love at PF... Why? Mobility on defense from the bigs, ability to switch out on shooters and defend the 3PT line and hedge effectively on pick and roll. (Talking strictly defense here).

                            Golden State won with Curry who is not a good defender (certainly worse than Lowry) and Klay who is just average and only rated above average sometimes because he can guard more than one position sort of.

                            The guard positions are the least important defensively. Bigs play a much more crucial role in anchoring your defense.
                            Last edited by Lupe; Sat Dec 10, 2016, 01:42 PM.

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                            • Lupe wrote: View Post
                              Yet somehow Cleveland just won the title with Kyrie Irving and JR smith in the backcourt and Love at PF... Why? Mobility on defense from the bigs, ability to switch out on shooters and defend the 3PT line and hedge effectively on pick and roll. (Talking strictly defense here).
                              Because of LeBron James.
                              Mamba Mentality

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                              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                                Yet somehow Cleveland just won the title with Kyrie Irving and JR smith in the backcourt and Love at PF... Why? Mobility on defense from the bigs, ability to switch out on shooters and defend the 3PT line and hedge effectively on pick and roll. (Talking strictly defense here).

                                Golden State won with Curry who is not a good defender (certainly worse than Lowry) and Klay who is just average and only rated above average sometimes because he can guard more than one position sort of.

                                The guard positions are the least important defensively. Bigs play a much more crucial role in anchoring your defense.
                                Helps a bit the cavs have lebron
                                I do think tt helps them. He doesn't need the ball but is effective when he gets it and has a lot of defensive impact. We are seeing some of that from bebe.

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