Everything Pascal Siakam

[chris]

The thing is, what Pascal and possibly OG turn into in terms of assets coming back in a trade is hugely relevant to the future of this team. Without a good return you're adding years at the bottom of the league trying to draft good players to surround Scottie with (this year not even counting since we likely don't have a pick). If you can't trade Pascal for a good return this off season you have to extend or resign and then trade when he becomes trade eligible. Might be career suicide for management to fumble this.

yeah i get that that's the argument, i just fundamentally disagree with it. i think you gain more from a lesser return now and focusing on scottie's development than you do from delaying his development in hopes of a greater return

[SkywalkerAC]

yeah i get that that's the argument, i just fundamentally disagree with it. i think you gain more from a lesser return now and focusing on scottie's development than you do from delaying his development in hopes of a greater return

Unless you aren't getting minutes/usage, playing with a great player and on a better team (in all likelihood, unless you're getting back a star somehow), generally isn't going do anything but help developmentally.

Scottie's going to get everything he can handle and then some this season, whether Pascal is on the team or not. An elite point guard would help with wins and getting Scottie easier looks, but given that Scottie wants to become a primary playmaker, that would have its own developmental cost.

Bottomline, Scottie is going to continue developing just fine if he's putting in the work. That's like, 50% of Darko's job description right now.

[chris]

Unless you aren't getting minutes/usage, playing with a great player and on a better team (in all likelihood, unless you're getting back a star somehow), generally isn't going do anything but help developmentally.

i generally agree with this as a basic principle but it also totally depends on roster construction and the skillsets of those involved.

like in that podcast you posted caitlin cooper talks about the best case scenarios for this offense (starting about the 11 min mark), and in her opinion that is either scottie with the ball with pascal darting around as a cutter, or pascal with the ball and scottie as a screen setter. one option takes the ball out of your best player's hands (who is up for a supermax extension, so how's that gonna sit with him) and the other is not doing much for scottie developmentally.

to me maxing scottie's development looks like putting the ball in his hands and surrounding him guys that can finish the play he makes, whether that be knocking down shots or cutting to the hoop. pascal can do the latter but it's not the best use of his skillset, and you still need good spacing on the floor otherwise the paint will be clogged, so where does jak fit into this?

you're gonna take some lumps building around scottie for sure. but hopefully we can get something decent for him and hit on the future draft picks we do have (which, yes, i realize will likely not include one in 2024)

[SkywalkerAC]

i generally agree with this as a basic principle but it also totally depends on roster construction and the skillsets of those involved.

like in that podcast you posted caitlin cooper talks about the best case scenarios for this offense (starting about the 11 min mark), and in her opinion that is either scottie with the ball with pascal darting around as a cutter, or pascal with the ball and scottie as a screen setter. one option takes the ball out of your best player's hands (who is up for a supermax extension, so how's that gonna sit with him) and the other is not doing much for scottie developmentally.

to me maxing scottie's development looks like putting the ball in his hands and surrounding him guys that can finish the play he makes, whether that be knocking down shots or cutting to the hoop. pascal can do the latter but it's not the best use of his skillset, and you still need good spacing on the floor otherwise the paint will be clogged, so where does jak fit into this?

Well there's always only going to be one ball and a bunch of guys that want it. Darko likes everyone to run a little pick and roll, to make quick decisions, and play team basketball. Sometimes Scottie will be the primary playmaker, sometimes it will be Pascal, and sometimes it will be someone else. We just lost a high usage guard - there's playmaking responsibility to go around than there was last year.

No one's expecting a top 10 offense, but there are ways to get to the middle ground with both Scottie and Pascal. Plus, to truly develop what Scotty needs to be a better shooter and he knows it. And that has nothing to do with the presence of Pascal.

There are worse things than having two elite point forwards, there's got to be a way to make it work.

[Mapko]

There is an eventual tipping point. Pascal/OG/Scottie will all be making a lot of money. Worst case it would be 35%, 30% and 25% of the cap.. Or 90% of the salary cap for 3 players. Two of which play fairly similar.

Maybe we can get Pascal at 30% and OG at 25%. Scottie will still likely get the full rookie max or 25%. that's still 80%. Hopefully OG settles for what Murray got which is about 17% of the cap.

Do note some of that will go down as the cap is likely to go up 10% every year for the foreseeable future.


But it's something that this front office is likely thinking about hard.

Paying 90% of your cap (or even 80%) for the above 3 players is acceptable IFF it gets you to (at least) ECF, but NOT ok for play in (be it 7,8 or worse).

[Mapko]

To me maxing scottie's development looks like putting the ball in his hands and surrounding him guys that can finish the play he makes, whether that be knocking down shots or cutting to the hoop. pascal can do the latter but it's not the best use of his skillset, and you still need good spacing on the floor otherwise the paint will be clogged, so where does jak fit into this?

Frankly I firmly believe this (cutting to the hoop) is Pascal's strength & way more effective (well, def way better than getting the ball 35 ft away from basket and going 1 on 1).

[Maury]

Pascal is a good isolation scorer. Not great, but quite good. Scottie can’t hold the ball all game. A creative coach should be able to get a lot out of both of them. The tricky part will be figuring out how it will all work in the first couple minutes of a game and the last couple minutes of a close game.

[TrueTorontoFan]

i generally agree with this as a basic principle but it also totally depends on roster construction and the skillsets of those involved.

like in that podcast you posted caitlin cooper talks about the best case scenarios for this offense (starting about the 11 min mark), and in her opinion that is either scottie with the ball with pascal darting around as a cutter, or pascal with the ball and scottie as a screen setter. one option takes the ball out of your best player's hands (who is up for a supermax extension, so how's that gonna sit with him) and the other is not doing much for scottie developmentally.

to me maxing scottie's development looks like putting the ball in his hands and surrounding him guys that can finish the play he makes, whether that be knocking down shots or cutting to the hoop. pascal can do the latter but it's not the best use of his skillset, and you still need good spacing on the floor otherwise the paint will be clogged, so where does jak fit into this?

you're gonna take some lumps building around scottie for sure. but hopefully we can get something decent for him and hit on the future draft picks we do have (which, yes, i realize will likely not include one in 2024)

part of the challenge is barnes is far behind in his skill dev too though doesn't dribble well doesn't' score hyper well except in spurts when he randomly turns into the terminator.

[Rudy Bargnani]

I don't really understand what the concern is with giving Pascal or OG or both a max contract. Houston just gave Fred Van Vleet a max. It's not because he's part of their long term future, or at least not in the capacity as their franchise player(s). That's still Green, Smith, Sengun, Whitmore or whomever emerges as their best players.

Assuming Raps are rebuilding around Scottie then just secure the assets and trade them before it becomes a problem. At present we're so far from contending or competing at a high level so not sure why it matters. Those guys aren't likely to be on the team when the next competitive window opens up for this team.

Ya. In my view teams won't pay the tax for a middle of the road team but will pay the tax if they are a championship contender. If you have to trade a player to dodge the tax other teams will know why and their value goes way down.

Jalen Green, Jabari Smith and Amen Thompson will all make $9mill each next year. Sengun about $3mill. So those 4 guys make $30 mill combined next year. Houston can overpay Fred and his contract will expire before it's time to pay these guys. They still aren't a tax team.
On the other hand Toronto's 4 guys will make a bit less than $100 mill next year. (Siakam, Poeltl, Trent, OG). And 3 of them are looking for raises and Barnes is almost due for an extension too. It's not my money but if the team isn't performing well I don't think we pay the tax to keep it together in few years.
We have a few years to worry about it and with cap raises it might not be a problem. But it's not like this is a championship calibre team that we are trying to keep together. All the more reason to rebuild now if there projects to be money problems in 2 years.

[LJ2]

yeah i get that that's the argument, i just fundamentally disagree with it. i think you gain more from a lesser return now and focusing on scottie's development than you do from delaying his development in hopes of a greater return

I guess it's just an agree to disagree moment. While Scottie's development is crucial to the team, so is surrounding him with the right pieces. The team as it is right now would be bottom of the league quality if you move Pascal for a "lesser return". How many years we'd be at the bottom before drafting and developing a couple of good players is unpredictable, but safe to say at best 3-4 yrs?

[LJ2]

Ya. In my view teams won't pay the tax for a middle of the road team but will pay the tax if they are a championship contender. If you have to trade a player to dodge the tax other teams will know why and their value goes way down.

Jalen Green, Jabari Smith and Amen Thompson will all make $9mill each next year. Sengun about $3mill. So those 4 guys make $30 mill combined next year. Houston can overpay Fred and his contract will expire before it's time to pay these guys. They still aren't a tax team.
On the other hand Toronto's 4 guys will make a bit less than $100 mill next year. (Siakam, Poeltl, Trent, OG). And 3 of them are looking for raises and Barnes is almost due for an extension too. It's not my money but if the team isn't performing well I don't think we pay the tax to keep it together in few years.
We have a few years to worry about it and with cap raises it might not be a problem. But it's not like this is a championship calibre team that we are trying to keep together. All the more reason to rebuild now if there projects to be money problems in 2 years.

With Fred gone, Gary reportedly signing for around $20M per, Jak at the same, and the cap spiking, I think it's pretty doable to max out OG and Pascal without going into the tax, but I'll let Dan or PM confirm. Point is just to secure the asset and flip as needed. This form of the Raptors isn't competing for anything so we need to stop viewing these signings like this is the roster we're going to eventually compete with. It's not the final form by a long shot.

[MixxAOR]

mentally preparing myself for him leaving for nothing

[golden]

With Fred gone, Gary reportedly signing for around $20M per, Jak at the same, and the cap spiking, I think it's pretty doable to max out OG and Pascal without going into the tax, but I'll let Dan or PM confirm. Point is just to secure the asset and flip as needed. This form of the Raptors isn't competing for anything so we need to stop viewing these signings like this is the roster we're going to eventually compete with. It's not the final form by a long shot.

The problem with the "loading your cap now and hoping to have flexibility when the cap spikes later" strategy, is that other teams who have signed players to value contracts will have MORE flexbility to make moves when the cap spikes. There's no way around it.... you need to have young talent on rookie contracts and some veteran talent on significant value contracts. You can't pay everybody at the top of their market value, if you want a competitive advantage. That's where this front office has failed miserably.

[golden]

mentally preparing myself for him leaving for nothing

Unless you're trading a super-duper star, you need to trade your guys so that the acquiring team gets 2 playoff runs. Otherwise, you're getting low-balled with a serious "rental" discount.

[MixxAOR]

Anyways I've been proven right. Kawhi-trade is not a model for team building that Raptors can use. So the whole keep your guys and then trade them for disgruntled star is out.

It's draft and finding diamonds in the rough in free agency.